Anniversary of paid membership requirement for posting classifieds....

Originally Posted by Stardust

In thinking on whether this site has dropped because of the price tacked on for ads, I just do not think so.
I tend to agree with Dan. The question I have is when the stricter rules were inforced were there more people for it and just a quieter, gentler crowd then those fewer that were against it but much more vocal?
I know that at one time I was not for the nicey nicey all the time, and some of it still stands on the BOI but I do believe that when that was in affect there was a lot more traffic. Perhaps people felt "safer" to post without being made to feel stupid or whatever reasons they personally had. There are a lot of guests that travel thru here, an awesome amount, how do we go about trying to entice them to communcate on these forums? I doubt the answer would be the gruffier way of doing things.

Actually, the stricter rules were in tandem with the paid requirement to post on the BOI, so that would be difficult to determine. At the time, I felt that participation WAS dwindling on the BOI, PLUS there was that issue with Chris Johnson that kind of slapped me alongside the face. In that, I mean, I saw an example of a person who I SHOULD have allowed to show his true face via his vicious attitude in the BOI, as it just MIGHT have warned away some potential customers. Maybe, maybe not, but that was the main reason behind my relaxing the rules there. It got TOO nice, and therefore kept people from showing their true face when things got tense. Which personally, I think is a mistake. People SHOULD see someone when they lose their cool and go ballistic. See them grab the gun and start shooting all of their own toes off. That is truly a learning experience offered by the BOI that I really did not want to kill off with strict rules.

The BOI has to be rough and tumble for that reason. Bad guys SHOULDN'T be forced into appearing to be reasonable and calm GOOD guys by my rules.

Originally Posted by akaangela

Rich, I don't have any good advice, but I do want you to know there are many many people who use and enjoy your site. One reason I have not posted a lot is because of the search function. I look up stuff before I post. Most of the time I find the information I need! Also the BIO is something that has not only helped me but a lot of others.

You want to feel like the forums are useful. They ARE! I have been enjoying this forum for a long time. The only reason I have not contributed this year was three fold. 1. hospital bills 2. I have not wanted, needed to sell anything. (I am trying NOT to look at the classifieds I cant afford any more snakes ) 3. since the $10 option was taken away I figured I would just wait till I needed to sell or I was able to save enough for the 25.

Anyway. You are doing a great job.

Sorry for rambling

Thank you. But I always try looking ahead to see where we are going. And it appears to me that we may be heading in the wrong direction. Perhaps we are and perhaps we aren't, but I have to judge things as I see them. And if possible try to make a correction that won't make things worse, rather than better. So far, in the recent past, I don't seem to be able to successfully accomplish that goal...

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Rich,

Yes, the paid advertisement is a possibility but I tend to think of an explanation more along the lines of Jim's thoughts. There are several extraneous sources of variability confounding the interpretation of the graphs.

A vission I would have for this site is not necessarily something huge (although that may interfere with your economic aspirations) but something respected by peers because the way people conduct themselves in here, and the quality of the information.

There have been (and still are) individuals that are highly detrimental to this site. Some forum moderators have been using their position for subliminal advertising. People are not dumb, they can see through that. Others have clear conflicts of interest, and incurr in cyberbullying of individuals that are clearly their competition. This is also perceived by the public.

In MHO it's not that much about charging for using this site as it is about the distasteful crudeness of some of the participants. Most people have enough with their daily problems to come to a site where 80% of what they read is negativity towards other members and/or themselves.

In all honesty and looking at the big picture (beyond Fauna) one should feel good that people try to stay away of this kind of behavior. The problem is that as the site scares some former good contributors away, at the same time it "concentrates" the rest.

You want to improve traffic? Give more power to your "super" moderators and have them crank the zero tollerance level up a notch. Sorry, but for some people that's the only solution. In short as much as I hate to say this the site needs to gain its respect back again, and IMHO the BOI is the place to start as it is where the main problem lies.

JMO

Yes, Dan, I have heard this before, but the choices of WHO the culprits are would probably change with everyone who is asked to name names. The WS Mod program was put into place to try to facilitate the ability of the membership to make this sort of change. Which I thought was going to work initially when some people got slammed to the carpet, but lately it appears that this is faltering to the point of collapse. I doubt this program will continue on through the upgrade process, which leaves the problem back where we started.

I am aware of some people who this site will be better off without, regardless of some dissenting opinions otherwise. I believe my phase of letting this site self regulate (my absentee landlord phase) is about over with. I've given it a good year to see how things would run, and unfortunately, it did not blossom as I had hoped with other people tending the field.

One thing I have also been hearing people say is that they want the BOI to go back to the way it used to be. But I am not at all certain what they are talking about. Used to be like WHAT?

As for enabling the site mods, yes, that will likely happen. Maybe even add one or two more. But things probably won't change until the upgrade takes place, which is dependent on the vBulletin developers getting the final beta testing done. AND getting my programmer to allocate time for the upgrade.

Yeah, I know, some people will be thinking, "Oh brother, YET another change around here..." Yep, you're right. Get used to it. That's the way I run this place. Change when change appears to be needed. If I ever hit the PERFECT solution for management, then we won't have to worry about change. But until then, that's just the way it has to be.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Actually, the stricter rules were in tandem with the paid requirement to post on the BOI, so that would be difficult to determine. At the time, I felt that participation WAS dwindling on the BOI, PLUS there was that issue with Chris Johnson that kind of slapped me alongside the face. In that, I mean, I saw an example of a person who I SHOULD have allowed to show his true face via his vicious attitude in the BOI, as it just MIGHT have warned away some potential customers. Maybe, maybe not, but that was the main reason behind my relaxing the rules there. It got TOO nice, and therefore kept people from showing their true face when things got tense. Which personally, I think is a mistake. People SHOULD see someone when they lose their cool and go ballistic. See them grab the gun and start shooting all of their own toes off. That is truly a learning experience offered by the BOI that I really did not want to kill off with strict rules.

The BOI has to be rough and tumble for that reason. Bad guys SHOULDN'T be forced into appearing to be reasonable and calm GOOD guys by my rules.

You are correct in all the above did come into play. However we no longer have the pay to go on the BOI and I am with you on the too nice..... I guess we are back to square one and that is just WHERE to draw that line?

It appears obvious to me that the rules should be enforced with consistancy to help cut down on the banter that goes off topic and still give that rope enough length for the person to hang themselves. This goes for me as well since I do have a tendancy to throw up my hands and walk away for a week or so .

I don't think changing the site around is the answer, nor do I think you should stop the pay for ads, you are still the cheapest and there is a lot of support behind it. Keeping the BOI IN the BOI is a good start and hopefully it will come back to full swing and we can expand again on the forums.

Rich, my friend. When I said BOI of old I think just the respect. When I look at you I respect you. But when I think of 80% of the BOI threads I think of garbage I have to get through to see the problem.

You know some of the posts just add more wood to the fire instead of bringing a bucket of water to help put it out and fix the issue.

There is no persfect way as we all know. To tell you the truth I love that you charge for ads. As you seen I paid to place ads here. I have sold from here. I think it is great! Also I try now to post ore in other areas. I do not have all the time in the world but I try. I try very hard not to get caught up in the BS.

Which ever way you go bro cool. I actaully talked about this with a vendor at the Taylor show. She said she did not mind paying the fee either.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Actually, the stricter rules were in tandem with the paid requirement to post on the BOI, so that would be difficult to determine. At the time, I felt that participation WAS dwindling on the BOI, PLUS there was that issue with Chris Johnson that kind of slapped me alongside the face. In that, I mean, I saw an example of a person who I SHOULD have allowed to show his true face via his vicious attitude in the BOI, as it just MIGHT have warned away some potential customers. Maybe, maybe not, but that was the main reason behind my relaxing the rules there. It got TOO nice, and therefore kept people from showing their true face when things got tense. Which personally, I think is a mistake. People SHOULD see someone when they lose their cool and go ballistic. See them grab the gun and start shooting all of their own toes off. That is truly a learning experience offered by the BOI that I really did not want to kill off with strict rules.

The BOI has to be rough and tumble for that reason. Bad guys SHOULDN'T be forced into appearing to be reasonable and calm GOOD guys by my rules.

Well just take a look a some of the posts by Chris Johnson. He was rude and inconsiderate towards others as it could be but he was glorified anyways; no one was able to see right through him. They just just took that as "brutal honesty" and a person that could be trusted blindly because of that. After all he called a spade a spade, how could he be a scammer? You recently banned Wes, because of his behavior. Does his behavior correlate with him as breeder/seller? Although I never purchased from him those that did, consider him one of the best. So where's the correlation between his online "persona" and the breeder/seller?

There's another individual that a year ago was almost unanimously voted a "bad guy" (the threads are still here) because the way he treated his customers. Today he is a paladin of justice and considered a "soldier" who fights all that the bad in the herp world. So in short, no, I don't think we are able to sort good from bad just by how they post. Maybe we do, but most people forget about it.

Regards

Maybe I can help with the BOI thing.

Lets say Joe posts that he was ripped off by bob. Joe posts everything he has. It looks as if he was really ripped off. three other members start posting but one of the three is starting in hard before Bob even posts. He is calling bob every name in the book. But this member has NOTHING to do with the thread.

Bob gets here and sees all this and goes right into DEFENSE. Even though it could have just been a mix up. and could have been handled with one post by Bob and Joe reading it.

Now Bob has to defend himself against a person that thinks he/she is above all and this person is calling Bob scum, Ahole, and what ever else he can. ADDING to the fire.

Bob forgets all about Joe and starts in with this member and gets warnings. Bob then views the BOI as a head ache becuase of this member.

All Along it was Bob and Joe just misunderstood each other but it took 80 pages becuase of one or two people starting things and not having anything to do with it.

Posting an opinion is fine IMO. But some people on the BOI think they are the LAW. What they say goes. This really puts people off.

I know this problem is over but I seen Wes warn people for going off topic on a BOI thread and he did it all the time..........................That is the last one I could think of.

Not your fault though man. Not at all, you can not control others actions. If we could, it would be cool huh?

There is always more than one way to look at something.

In that above scenario, quite possibly Bob could see peer pressure already building, and seeing the number of views the thread already has, this could be a powerful incentive to go ahead and do the right thing to get this over quickly. Peer pressure is really what the BOI is all about. I've heard all the arguments about only allowing the principals in a transaction to participate, but I believe that would be self defeating. The problem, as some have pointed out, is that it has gone overboard by a large margin. Destructively so, even. But how do you draw a line between "good" peer pressure and "bad" peer pressure? It would be like trying to black and white define "profanity" or "pornography". Everyone has their own definitions, and likely to strongly disagree with someone elses.

Oh, while I am thinking of it, this issue of "consistency" has been brought up by someone yet again. I think the WS mods have had a taste of this and seen first hand that this is an impossible goal to even attempt to pursue. Even if only ONE person tasked themselves to read each and every post and try to apply the rules fairly to every post made, it just could not be done. Everything posted is subject to being interpretted differently by each and every person who reads it. And the same words written in different context will be interpretted differently, even by the same person. Not to mention that attitude itself, differing from one part of the day to another, based on external events, will color how that one person reads each post. Now take five people all reading posts, trying to interpret the rules fairly, colored with each one's particular mood of the moment, and you can well imagine how "consistent" such things would be day in and day out.

So "consistency" is just a fallacy from some imaginary world that really has nothing at all to do with reality. Anyone who expects perfection is just being incredibly naive and unrealistic.

A view from the outside.

This comes as no surprise to me at all.
Let's look at the history of the site from the perspective of someone no so close to the action anymore.

Rich, you created a wonderful resource for the reptile community
You put in what I am sure were endless hours and loads of money to bring it to the people. After a year or two (I'm unsure of the actual time-line), many loyal supporters of the site made donations, contributed animals and services for auction, and in general tried to help you carry on your vision. Not long afterward, you were convinced by many to charge admission to further offset those expenses. As I recall, you initially resisted that move.

You were prepared to lose a percentage of the membership because of the change. but, you were finally convinced it was necessary to ensure the continued existance of the forum. As it worked out, I don't think that you lost as much as you thought you would.

Unfortunately, it wasn't long after, that for whatever reason, you became disillusioned and adopted the previously mentioned "absentee landlord" attitude.

I personally feel, that this irritated quite a few of the people who had given money or animals to support the site. I believe, that at that point, it appeared to them that this had become all about money for you.

Sometime later, you then adopted the "Pay to Moderate" program which only bolstered that perception. The problems with that program have already been presented in this thread, and I will not elaborate upon them further.

With all of this, it is no surprise to me that the traffic is down.
In all of the forums that I visit, there are always a handful of individuals that help to DRIVE the site. They initiate discussions, answer questions, and in general help to make the site successful. When you lose the participation of these key people (and I think that you have lost several), the site suffers.

This is especially true with a site that has been dependent upon them because the site owner, has chosen not to participate on a daily basis and drive the site himself.

I wish you luck with the resurrection, so to speak. This was once a great site, and has the potential to be that again. However, I think it is up to you to make it so. Charging people for the privilege of running it for you, while an ingenious business move on your part, is not going to carry the site in the direction in which you have indicated that you want it to go.

There's an old saying in business: If it's going to be, it's up to me.

Good luck, and I sincerely wish you well.

So "consistency" is just a fallacy from some imaginary world that really has nothing at all to do with reality. Anyone who expects perfection is just being incredibly naive and unrealistic.

Looking for perfection is almost "perfect" excuse about not doing nothing about an issue. Nothing can say that you haven't tried every name in the book. Some have worked great, some more or less, some not at all.

Destructively so, even. But how do you draw a line between "good" peer pressure and "bad" peer pressure?

That's even been addressed from a legal standpoint as we speak, due to a couple of suicides in teenagers because of cyberbullying. In my opinion peer pressure is good, but when it turns into harassment then it becomes a problem. As it was said recently, where does free speech end and harassment begin?

Some people are doing just that. They have past gone beyond acceptable peer pressure like for example: "you shouldn't be doing that because this and that", to outright bullying an individual while incurring in self-aggrandizing behavior. Just substitute the "I" in any given paragraph they write with "me" instead, that will let you see right through them. It's all about me (BTW I, me, mine; great song by George Harrison ). If they can get away with calling someone a liar, scammer, and thief, and even mock his sexual preferences (of which hopefully they don't have factual proof of , ) with total impunity, then it means they are one moral step above that individual.

Regards.