Reporting Bad Guys/Gals - It may be affecting us all!

First, I don't really know where this thread belongs and I know no one will agree. But, I have to say that things have got to the point that we all may be shooting ourselfs in the foot with some of the "badguy" reports. Please understand that the intent of this thread is not to slam the BOI or its intended purpose. But, sometimes dirty laundry is better washed at home, than taken to the laundry mat. Please allow me to explain: I often see "badguy" reports about a pet store chain called "Petco". I believe thats their name. In any case the name does not matter. You go into this store and see a lot of sick and half dead animals. Being the herp/animal lover that you are, you immediately go to the BOI to report this, plus you call all the State and Federal wildlife departments that will listen to you. Great! You cared enough to take action and get involved. But, what about long term. I know that most of the "PETA" type groups and most State Fish & Wildlife Departments do look at the BOI, Kingsnake, and other sites. I recently met a former PETA member who really made some eye opening comments to me. His comment was that their view was that there are no GOOD pet stores, animal/herp dealers or zoos. In their eyes we are simply wildlife pimps. Plus, he said they have been able to convince some Federal and State wildlife officials to have the same mindset. What made me start this thread is the issue with Bruce at Carolina Reptile Exchange. No doubt Bruce is bad. But, my issue is this. The groups out there that are out to "get us all" and to kill the industry, we are giving them all the ammo they need. South Carolina is one of the few "herp friendly" states left and I'm afraid that all of the attention to "one" badguy in SC could shut the industry down in SC. In my opinion, SC has one of the best Wildlife Departments in the US, but remember wildlife departments do not make or pass laws. I also feel that all of the reporting of the "online" herp fraud could come back to bite us all. I recently read that due to all of the reports of fraud from online pharmacies that the Government may attempt to shut down online prescription sales. The same could happen to us. Just imagine a law being passed that would make it illegal for any online sales of "live animals". Heck, I bet most of you on here are to young to remember the "good old" days when you actually had to stuff your price list in an envelope, lick a stamp, and mail it.

In closing, I'm not trying to say that if you are scammed, you should just chalk if up for experience. And of course "your heart" is in the right place when you do see abused animals by attempting to get "involved". I'm just saying we should always think "long term" as to how our own actions "today", could affect us all later. It may turn out that we are our own worst enemy. When it comes to wildlife laws, local and state Governments usually "over-respond".

Always remember the brain is like a parachute, it functions properly only when fully open.

Thank you.

David Rivers

Well, the BOI was created simply because there really was no other method that I am aware of to deal with the problem of bad guys in this industry. We are too small of an industry, and generally the value of the transactions are too low to even register on law enforcement's radar screen.

So if you have an alternative concerning what to to about this problem, then please share it with us.

I think this site is similar in function to something like the BBB. Granted, the site is uncensored, but the principal is similar. Somewhere to "lodge" a complaint. I don't think even if those places became more aware of this site, that anything that drastic would happen. It's all "we" can do to even get them to go after blatant rip-off artists and outright frauds, let alone completly ban the whole industry, just because SOME people are breaking the law.

If that were the case they would have shut down places like ebay a long time ago (not saying ebay is bad, just that it has as much if not more scams than the herp industry). You mention the "old days" of mailing lists, there was fraud back then also, no different now-one was by mail/phone and now it's by the web.

You are right that more and more cities/counties/states are passing more and more laws concerning the keeping of herps, but I don't think the fact that this site is here has any detrimental effect. This site has been able to "catch" people shipping venomous herps illegally, when this is brought to light, they hopefully stop or get busted. If this site were not here those types of instances would never have been uncovered, and they would still be shipping and all it would take is one instance of an escaped Cobra biting someone, and that would be all those organizations need to shut us down. So if this site has any effect at all, I think it is a positive one.

I just wanted add that we should also be considering the fact that PETA is also a very reasonable group of people despite their extreme measures. In the winter time they collect and give out fur coats to homeless people to stay warm in, the message being that only in the most dire circumstance should things like wearing fur to be acceptable. So I think that even though they disagree with this stuff entirely... they can understand the difference of ****ty companies like Petco selling sickly animals that they gave terrible care to, and good people in the hobby who take care of and trade happy healthy animals. So I guess what im saying is that maybe PETA going after the really bad people in this business ultimately protects the hobbyist. And i'm sure that some of you will think " but PETA wants to end this hobby completely". Wouldn't you also think they would want to make eating meat illegal too? Its just not going to happen though. So I welcome PETA utilizing this space, it makes it even more useful than I thought it could be.

Biased PETA member,
Brian Fusko :scatter:

David...i see you point somewhat but as you even pointed out peta types view us as bad guys no matter what.

Anyone that owns any animal is completely wrong by their standards (unless you adopt from a shelter) buying captive bred doesn't seem to be any better in their eyes as your only encouraging breeders to produce more. Also they would have you believe that owning reptiles poses a serious health risk...i wonder how many people hear know of someone that became ill from their herps...me, i think i'm in more danger of eating of getting sick from eating undercooked/cross contaminated food than contracting salmonella from my pets...also they make it seem as if every reptile in captivity is doomed because they can not possibly have their needs met

does the boi give them ammo? possibly, but anyone willing to see both sides will see what the hobby is about and know that the boi and the people that participate are just trying to keep it clean

peta types seem to have little interest in the whole story and take whatever "facts" suit them to further their cause...if the facts aren't there they simply invent them

i for one don't think that people like this should influence something that is imo very good for the hobby such as the boi, which at its best shuts down a lot of the bad guys and hopefully discourages new ones

--liz

Originally Posted by NagChampa

I just wanted add that we should also be considering the fact that PETA is also a very reasonable group of people despite their extreme measures.

Wow, obviously must be different "definitions" of reasonable.

So I think that even though they disagree with this stuff entirely... they can understand the difference of ****ty companies like Petco selling sickly animals that they gave terrible care to, and good people in the hobby who take care of and trade happy healthy animals.

They may be able to tell the difference, but they still don't think any animal should be kept, even if we take good care of them.

So I guess what im saying is that maybe PETA going after the really bad people in this business ultimately protects the hobbyist. And i'm sure that some of you will think " but PETA wants to end this hobby completely". Wouldn't you also think they would want to make eating meat illegal too? Its just not going to happen though. So I welcome PETA utilizing this space, it makes it even more useful than I thought it could be.

Reptiles (and all exotic pets) are being regulated, more and more every day, from restrictions on the type kept, to outright bans. They are able to do this because of the irrational fears "man" has to snakes. For that reason they are able to get these restrictions and bans implemented, even without the "help" of PETA. If and when PETA does go after us directly, we will be in big trouble. No comparison to how hard it would be to try and stop the total eating of meat.

Originally Posted by lizwinz

Anyone that owns any animal is completely wrong by their standards (unless you adopt from a shelter)

They don't want anyone, anywhere to own animals, whether from a shelter or not.

Clay Davenport has some great information about PETA and the Humane Society of the United States (the WORST of the Animal Rights groups)

Go to his site and read some of the information he has... www.arbreptiles.com

I, as well as being a herp fiend, am also a hunter. I just read a couple of articles yesterday talking about PETA and the HSUS's funding...
They are a behemoth!!! And they are truly enemies to ANY pet owner and the entire pet industry. The reason they spay and neuter every single animal that comes out of a Humane Society shelter is that they are set on slowly and systematically ending ALL pet ownership...not just exotics...dogs, cats, livestock...EVERYTHING.

These are not rational people in any way, shape or form...and they have absolutely no concept of conservation or endangerment. There are some species that would not be surviving today without private captive breeding programs. Did you know there are more captive tigers in the US than in the entire wild population worldwide? These people want to end this. Hunters and pet owners (especially "exotics" owners, which tend to be endangered or threatened in many more cases than "dogs and cats, which can't be found in nature in the first place) are the biggest proponents of scientifically substantiated conservation, and the biggest group of financial supporters...not doing what we "think" might be best...but actually doing what is shown to need to be done.

I will bring the quotes about the groups membership and finances in tomorrow and post them. (If I remember)

lizwinz- I actually do know of someone becoming sick from a herp collection. Not friend of a friend who heard... A good friend of mine has a large herp collection in his basement. His mother in law spent a weekend in the spare basement bedroom and got a nasty respiratory infection, Dr. said was likely from being in close proximity to a large # of reptiles. I don't know exactly what it was called, but normaly found in zoo personal. Personaly, I've spent a lot of time in his basement and never had a problem. ( hack hack, cough)

Originally Posted by NdIndy

lizwinz- I actually do know of someone becoming sick from a herp collection. Not friend of a friend who heard... A good friend of mine has a large herp collection in his basement. His mother in law spent a weekend in the spare basement bedroom and got a nasty respiratory infection, Dr. said was likely from being in close proximity to a large # of reptiles. I don't know exactly what it was called, but normaly found in zoo personal. Personaly, I've spent a lot of time in his basement and never had a problem. ( hack hack, cough)

Unless his reptiles are harboring some sort of respiratory infection, there is no way his mother got one from being near them. Maybe from the temp/humidity in his basement...or from a fungus/mold/bacteria that thrives on these conditions, but NOT from the herps. Herps (as most egg laying animals) carry salmonella, which in turn can cause salmonellosis (salmonella poisoning). It can be mild to deadly, but you must come in direct internal contact with it to cause any reaction. That is why it is highly recommended that you wash your hands before (for the snakes sake) and after (for YOUR sake) handling any herps.

Originally Posted by NdIndy

a nasty respiratory infection, Dr. said was likely from being in close proximity to a large # of reptiles.

Quick! Someone warn Rich, Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks, Kara and Kevin at NERD, TopShelfExotics, the members of ACC, Evan Stahl, Bob Applegate, the Barkers, Jeff Ronne, Brian Sharp, Casey Lazik, Kathy Love, Don Hamper, Kevin and Charlotte Barnett, Mike & Isis Madec, John Hollister, Rich Ihle, Ralph David, Jeff Hartwig, The entire ProExotics team, Peter Kahl, and a thousand more breeders before this becomes an epidemic!!!

I actually know of someone who's choked on a pen cap before. Ever since I've wanted to start the makepensillegal.com website.