Okeetee corns

But by looking at them there is no way you would ever know which one is carring the extra gene for Hypo. i don't even think the best Corn experts out there could even tell them apart.

Of course they couldn't, that's part of being heterozygous. The same is true with any snake carrying an unexpressed gene, it can't be seen by looking at it.

My point being even the very best looking Okeetees out there, could possibly have something extra in it. And what about the new comer to the hobby of cornsnakes. If a kid shows up at a reptile show and wants to get a nice looking Okeetee as his, or her first snake will they even care were it came from. And that it is a "pure Okeetee" as long as it looks good to them, thats really all that matters.

You're mixing two points of view. Even the best looking Okeetees may not be Okeetees at all. The look of the snake is less of a factor than where it's ancestors originated from, at least to those who adhere to the original use of the term as a locality label.
Just because that kid was sold a good looking snake labeled as an "Okeetee" does not mean he actually has a locality animal, and likely doesn't care, but will perpetuate the misuse of the term.

But on the other side does it really matter all that much?

If it doesn't matter to you, then you will never understand why it matters so much to some of the rest of us.
Some people have an interest in a true locality, and others don't. I can no more explain to you why it does matter than you could explain to me why it shouldn't, the two perspectives are diametrically opposed.

Stephen,

What if I sold a kid an amelanistic corn, but I had labeled it as an amel bloodred? Now it is a beautiful amel to be certain, maybe the prettiest ever produced by anyone, anywhere. However, it is not really a bloodred, and I had just used that name to express how brilliant the reds were on my little amel for sale.

Would that be an acceptable practice? No? Why, because I was using a defined term in the business in a way that was misleading to the buyer? Of course, you would be right in taking such a stand, and I would agree with your assessment 100%.

Now, forget that genes are what you were wanting to buy with your purchase. Consider that it might be possible for some collectors to be just as interested as the locality of the animal as others might be in what genes are present in an animal's composition. You may not see what the big deal is, but it is their right to want the aspects of corns that they find important just as it is for anyone else who might be seeking genetic purity.

THAT is why it is a big deal to many individuals in the cornsnake world. To them, selling every semi-brightly colored normal as an "okeetee" is no different than it would to you for someone to be passing off an exceptionally red amel as an amel bloodred. It diminishes the original intent of the name, and muddies the waters for those seeking to have a pure strain of "whatever" it is that they may be trying to cultivate in their collections.

That's the big deal. That's why it matters.

My point being even the very best looking Okeetees out there, could possibly have something extra in it.

This thread has covered almost every imaginable belief, pro and con, regarding the emphasis on locality animals. But this point you made brings up a little something "extra" (pun intended!)

It is HIGHLY unlikely (read: monkeys will sooner escape from zoos on zebra-back) that locality Okeetee corns will throw a mutant if bred with other animals from the same area. In fact, I've never spoken with a bona-fide collector from the area who has ever seen it, even after generations of contained gene pools by their buyers. There are those that claim it's happened to them (pm me for a link) and they all tend to either have a broad range of acceptable land that is somehow still considered "Okeetee," or admit to getting stock from a source they didn't know and don't remember.

Besides the sterotypical beauty of these locality animals (some aren't very special at all), another desirable characteristic is that every morph in the book WON'T pop up from your breedings. And let's not forget the reason so many were first drawn to them: the idea of preserving snakes of legend. Pretty cool stuff, I think! But I have no interest in fighting with those who feel otherwise. Well, except Serpwidgets!

When a neophyte cornsnake collector goes to a trade show looking for an Okeetee the odds are that he expects to get a true locality animal.
When a vendor sells an Okeetee to a neophyte cornsnake collector the odds are the vendor is thinking that locality isn't important so they don't bring it up.
The neophyte collector often doesn't know enough to ask the vendor about locality because he/she doesn't have the experience yet to know that people are selling Okeetee animals that aren't from Okeetee.
But even if the new collector asked the vendor he might not get a straightforward answer right away.
I have had to really press vendors for straightforward answers and after enough questions I usually learn that the animals aren't locality at all.
Here is a recollection of a conversation I had with an extremely well known vendor who sells Okeetee's:

Me) I see you have some WC Okeetees for sale. Did you collect them yourself?

Salesperson1) No. We got them from a reliable source.

Me) So when you say they are Okeetees does that mean they are locality animals?

Salesperson1) Absolutely. True Okeetees.

Me) So you have approximate locality data to go along with the animals?

Salesperson1) We can't provide that.

Me) So how can I know without doubt that these are locality Okeetees.

Salesperson1) Nobody cares about that. They are as good as any Okeetees out there.

Me) Were the animals collected in South Carolina?

Salesperson1) The collector lives in South Carolina and collects the whole area.

Me) How about Jasper County. Can you at least determine that they are from Jasper?

Salesperson1) We wouldn't know what county they are from. But all those cornsnakes from South Carolina are basically the same.

Me) So you are selling WC Okeetees without even knowing what County they are from and possibly don't even know what state they are from?

Salesperson1) Well, like I said. Nobody cares about where they are from.

So I called back later because I saw another ad where they seemed to be insisting that they had true Okeetees.

Me) I see you guys are still selling some WC Okeetees. I had a conversation recently with another guy there and he wasn't able to tell me much about the locality of the animals. Is it possible that you are now able to give more data since you are still running that ad?

Salesperson2) We have a ton of WC cornsnakes in here. They just are all together and we get them from somebody who doesn't really distinguish locality. They collect all over the southeast but there is no way I can give anybody actual locality data. Some might be from Jasper and some might not. But we can't distinguish.

Well, at least this guy is more honest about it. So I decide that I will call up another well known breeder so I can possibly get some CB Okeetee's. They are apparently well known for their CB Okeetee stock and they have a very good reputation for selling locality animals. I will call this person XXXXX.

Me) Hi XXXXX. I am looking for true locality Okeetee's. I've pretty much learned that the WC's that are being sold as Okeetee's and aren't really Okeetee's at all. Maybe you can help me with some CB.

XXXXX) Sure, tell me more about what you are looking for.

Me) I need to have some way to verify that any Okeetee's are in fact directly descendant from Okeetee locality specimens. Are you able to trace lineage back to Okeetee stock?

XXXXX) All my CB Okeetee's were originally from at least one Okeetee specimen as a parent but not necessarily both parents were locality Okeetee's. I think that most people aren't really into that so I havn't made it a priority.

Me) Are you able to tell which ones are which? Can you trace the ones you have back to a specific Okeetee specimen.

XXXXX) No, not anymore. These lines were started a good number of years back and that information isn't available anymore. Could I interest you in some of my Hypo Okeetee's?

Me) No thanks. but thanks for the info.

Both of the conversations I had were with very well known and reputable vendors. I am always seeing forum conversations where people are bragging about their "pure" Okeetee's that they got from these vendors. Once in a while I stick my nose into those conversations and suggest that their animals might not really be locality animals like they seem to be thinking and the people are totally defensive. I guess nobody wants to admit that they bought something different than what they thought they were getting. So then you have these collectors who purchased these animals eventually selling offspring claiming that those babies are in fact "true" locality Okeetee cornsnakes. and the cycle continues.
Now maybe most people don't care about locality. And that's ok too. But for those that DO care, there are a couple of us that are keeping pure locality stock. If you think this is anal that is fine too because you really havn't seen anything yet. As much as the general herp community argues about what is or isn't an Okeetee cornsnake, some of us are arguing about which side of the road or which side of Ridgeville represents a true Okeetee. I differentiate subtle color differences between the southern portion of Okeetee range and the northern part of the range, which is only a few miles apart! And then of course, you have some damn nice looking animals that come from other localities in Jasper county. To be honest about it, the most consistently beautiful WC cornsnakes I have ever seen in my life come from an area stretching between southern Jasper Cnty (Not the Hunt Club) and Savannah, Georgia. But if I am selling them, they won't be called Okeetee cornsnakes.

The issue with locality data is extremely important in a broader sense. Being able to verify ancestory like some of us are doing now will become more and more important as the hobby continues to grow. Unfortunately, not only are we concerned about locality of cornsnakes but these days you even have to double check to make sure you are actually getting a cornsnake. With all the hybrids out there that are reproducing and having offspring from those passed from hand to hand it is getting nearly impossible to verify what an animal even is! My personal opinion is that the whole hybrid mess started with the creamsickles. How many neophyte collectors bought one of those not realizing it is a hybrid? Of course, you could argue that when that line originated it was just intermingling of subspecies but they were different enough to at least warrant a footnote of ancestory weren't they? At the time they were first coming out the originator wouldn't even tell anybody how he produced them! When someone breeds a creamsickle with a normal now what in the hell do they call it? How many cornsnake varieties are there out there now that have some ratsnakes mixed in. Or Cal king or Pit. With stuff like this happening locality data is one of the most significant tools we have to at least make sure we know what we are getting in the first place.

Sorry for the long post

Thanks for the long post!

The Jungle corn is another type that more than one person on the forums didn't know (upon purchase) wasn't a pure corn. Trade names are a lot more important than most people realize. I'd personally have gone for King Korns, or something suitably cheesy, but I've never liked hybrids.

Clay, can you remember what all was in that $250 "tri-color bullsnake" we saw in Columbia? I think he added 50 bucks to the price for each species and 50 for each genus that were in his animals!

Clay, can you remember what all was in that $250 "tri-color bullsnake" we saw in Columbia?

He didn't even know himself what all was in it, and admitted it. He named 4 or 5 seperate species in the snakes ancestry, but thought there was another or two he was forgetting.
Mutts are bad enough to begin with, but to not even bother to remember what all is in them tells alot for the record keeping of some "breeders".
The funniest part was he acted like it was a grand thing and expected us to think it was some sort of accomplishment. Well, on second thought, that's not that funny after all.

quote

"When someone breeds a creamsickle with a normal now what in the hell do they call it?"

I've heard them called rootbeer corns, and to any neophyte herper I'd guess they'd think they were getting a normal corn, not a hybrid (or an intergrade, or sub-specific hybrid, not sure of the terminology)...It's been said before, but it's worth saying again....to get true locality animals the ONLY way to know for sure is to make the trip to the locality you are looking for and collect them yourself....almost every big breeder has pretty much 'fessed up to the fact that they can't or can no longer verify that their Okeetee's are true locality Jasper County Okeetees...I've wrestled with my conscience on the subject of breeding Jungle corns (or Rat/corns) and while I have nothing against the breeders who pursue this road and find alot of the hybrid creation s very pretty I'm just not gonna be responsible for adding to the "cornfusion"....I should say any more to the confusion as I did sell a group of "rootbeer corns" to a pet store in Manchester MD 2 years ago...and while to the owners credit she did list them as 3/4 corn 1/4 Emory who knows now if they are still being represented as such :*(...peace all, maybe I'll see y'all in in sunny South Carolina this spring :*)...anf for all you true locality nuts I'll have verifiable Harford Co. MD north Chesapeake Bay northern water snakes this year lol...

but thought I'd just seen the biggest Pueblan I'd ever heard of when Clay and I passed his table. It was several rubbermaids down among a stack of bins holding adult snakes, and turned out to have a Pitouphis body, but was (albiet broken and very tipped) tri-colored. In the other bins were other mutts, one looking much like a corn, but with the wrong head, or much like a dull Cal. king, but fat and stocky like a bull. All were hybrids he'd produced, and full of more background than a DaVinci painting. Most looked like muddy versions of a familiar snake, few were at all pretty, but that tri-bull would've been neat had it been anything real (read: was either a natural intergrade or at least something that would produce similar offspring).

Maybe I'm beginning to see why people think I'm anal for saying Okeetees should at least come from Okeetee!

This sort of things makes it real difficult if you are interested in pursuing new genetic lines and anomalies in a particular species. When someone has an odd looking corn snake for sale, just how the heck do you know what it is? With the number of hybrids that are now floating around, basically unless I produce it myself, the ancestry is suspect.

Much the same rule of thumb about locality animals, I guess. Unless you catch it yourself, you really don't know for certain.

Which is unfortunate, because certainly there are people producing some interesting varieties of corn snakes lately. But even if you do trust them, how do you know what happened in the generations that produced their stock? How much did they trust and believe the people they got their stock from? Was it misplaced? Unfortunately, when it comes to business, I feel that more people will lie then those that will not in order to make a sale.

All it takes is one lie, anywhere along the line and you are not getting what you thought you were. It would certainly ruin my day to buy a really wierd looking corn snake from someone, spend a couple of years breeding it into several projects, then one year get a few Sinaloan milks snake hatch out of some of those projects.

And that could certainly happen now. Which is why I have, for all intents and purposes, closed my collection, except in very rare instances. But did I close the doors too late? I have some animals that I still scratch my head over......

Here is some dimwit on KS selling Creamsickle Okeetee's.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=6&de=181967