Inbreeding

Originally Posted by whiskersmom

Admittedly, I know nothing about snakes or geckos, but when inbreeding is discussed regarding snakes and gecko's is it done to lose a fundamental part of their bodies? This is a legitimate question....as I said, I know next to nothing about them. Is it done to enhance color or to give a different pattern? Does their level of care have to change?
Would you purposely inbreed to create a snake or gecko so different, that their live's would have to be different from every other snake or gecko out there?
And if you would purposely create this snake or gecko, would you feel good about selling them to a public that already provides sub-adequate care for them?

Sherri, Kelli nor I have taken issue with anyone who believes this mutation shouldn't be propagated. I think that you will find that the majority of us would agree that an animal being promoted with a severe disability, none of us would support. First you have to determine there is a severe disability that would hamper their ability to thrive in captivity. Seamus and Denise both made some valid points that should be discussed.

Your broad statements that you have made about inbreeding on both forums and threads is what I take issue with.

My first post on this thread

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with you. If I replace silkback in the below quote and put in any mutation associated with snakes, geckos or any other animal, it would be called responsible out-crossing.

and comments so far has had nothing to do with this particular mutation.
Then you leap to this junk.

And if this is the way you do business.....btw, when you sell a snake do you tell them that this snakes brother is also the father? People accept that? Wow!!! I guess I am naive!!!
Do you also pump 'em up on steroids to make them bigger? I mean, if mating a brother to his sister is nothing, what else do you do? Where do you draw your moral line???

The other points you have made.
I do have a problem with people who suggest that a government agency should come into everyones home and inspect their reptiles.

I do have a problem with you stating that anyone that inbreeds any animal doesn't care for their animals and only sees dollar signs.

I disagree with almost every post you made on the other thread because I create morphs and I do care for the well-being of my animals. I take offense to much of what you have spouted. Like Kelli, I enjoy my animals and also enjoy the genetics of it all.

Dennis-

I think what you're seeing is a huge case of frustration. We've been trying to get answers. There have been lots of questions about this mutation, and nobody answers them, no matter who asks, or in what "tone" of typing.

I am well aware that other species are sometimes inbred to create new morphs, and that responsible breeders then outcross (responsible being the key word here). The problem here is that one of the parties involved in this new mutation has proven to be not so responsible, and it's hard to imagine that this mutation would be outcrossed properly.

Yes, the majority of our issues are because it would appear that these animals' quality of life has changed, but it's really difficult to know anything for sure when you can't get those answers from the only people that know those things.

Please, let me set your mind at ease, I did NOT notify a government agency...there are different people out there that I thought would be interested in knowing that this was being attempted. In no way were they government affiliated.

Yes, I'm frustrated and when I see what I thought to be someone (perhaps you, I would need to go back and read the posts) was condoning this type of practice, I got upset. The statement I made about "steroids" I apologize for. There wasn't any need for this type of sarcasm, it was made in the heat of debate and it shouldn't have been said.

Dennis Hultman wrote:

I do have a problem with you stating that anyone that inbreeds any animal doesn't care for their animals and only sees dollar signs.

I disagree with almost every post you made on the other thread because I create morphs and I do care for the well-being of my animals.

Isn't it a little unrealistic to believe that everyone does it for the love of the animal and not for money. Or that they give the level of care that you say you do.

What I posted wasn't directed at you, I'm sorry if you felt like I was pointing a finger at you. Please, do not take offense for what I was meaning to be about the Silk back bearded dragons.

So, I see this isn't a new subject....
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=41695

Hello,

This whole thread just makes me very sad. Too many people who are not seeing the big picture, & long term aspect of it all, are not real concerned with the inbreeding aspect. That is my main problem with it all, not just the inbreeding, while that is bad in itself, but to purposely inbreed to bring out a birth defect basically. I am sure it would not do well or survive on it's own in the wild. As Kelli pointed out, survival of the species, or the fittest. Of course, that is how it usually is.
What I have a huge problem with is to inbreed so closely to get a desirable trait that is going to be extremely hard to care for. I mean, look how the normal dragons are not taken care of properly, do you really think that people will do what it takes to protect these? What will happen, is that inevitably, as things usually go, the wrong person will get their hands on a pair, & will breed them, not knowing what the heck they are doing, & it will further weaken them, or possibly kill them.
I for one, am tired of people trying to hide instead of answer questions. There are so many contradictions with the husbandry, but common sense will prevail with the care as we can figure how they should be taken care of. I do believe that money is the motivating factor here, which is sad. It is cruel. Just like it is cruel to do it to other species. I do not agree with messing with a mutation to the point of weakening the species, which this looks like it will. Snakes are no different or other types of reptiles. They are all susceptible to more disease, weakened immune systems, etc. What is the point, why not breed strong & healthy one instead of taking chances with the already dwindling gene pool?
What if aliens came down, & started inbreeding us, to get all of us to only have 3 arms, because they thought it looked cool? I know that is a bit extreme, but it is the aspect anyway, you get the idea. Why can't we just leave well enough alone!
Adenovirus has been around a long time, & if it had of been properly addressed when it first came out, there could have been a number of things done to prevent the spreading of it. Instead it was covered up & nothing was done, all so the people could keep making money.
Those of you, & you know who you are, tend to get defensive when honest people have questions that need answering. There are several people who have posted on this thread that are fighting with everything that they have to help their dragons live with adenovirus, & remain healthy on a day to day basis. It just amazes me that you want to argue with people who have ethics. What is wrong with having ethics anyway, when it comes to the care & wellbeing of a species? Don't they deserve that much anyway?
I have just never seen so many mean & nasty people as I have when these types of threads come about. I am on alot of boards too, but have just never seen so many spiteful people.
We all have a right to our opinions, most definitely, BUT we do not have a right to exploit any animal. They cannot voice their opinion, so it is time someone fights for them for once. Everything is about money, & it just seems to me that no one cares about the welfare of the animal anymore.

Tracie

I did have a long conversation with Tremper about the effects of inbreeding and weakened immune systems. He expressed concern and gave many examples of how crypto did not seem to effect WC animals, but that inbreed captive animals did not show as strong as resistance to the effects of crypto. Again, one of these days when I have research to support this I'll get more in depth.

That is a quote from Intense Herpetoculture, from the link I posted previously. I understand it's about geckos but couldn't that be applied here? I've not read where Australia is having a problem with BD's dying off from Adenovirus, so is it because of the inbreeding that everyone keeps bringing up to develop color that has possibly made this virus so strong in captive breds?

I think it's highly possible that we've weakened their systems by inbreeding to the point that they can't fight off the virus, not to mention coccidia, parasites, etc.

I am really disappointed that the original thread on silkbacks was locked without many of the questions being answered. I do understand why and it was heading in a totally unproductive direction.

I tried to ask questions that I thought were important and remain diplomatic. Many of the questions posed here were posed in the previous thread. I tried to point out that there were differences in husbandry (not better or worse, just different) and I received a reply with a bunch of subtle and not so subtle insults.

My main concern is, how inbred are these animals? And, if they have only been around a year or so, how can anyone possibly state there are no genetic problems with them? The honest answer to many of the questions should probably be, "I don't know." How related were to two leatherbacks that produced the first silkbacks? And for goodness sake, when was the first silkback hatched out? I asked that question at least three times. Was it in 2006, like Dachiu posted on their site? If so, the breeder himself would only have limited knowledge of how a captive environment, breeding and other factors affect this mutation. More importantly, there may be genetic issues that just have not had to time to show up in offspring.

To me, it is irresponsible and self serving ($) to go full speed ahead with this project with so little information known. Now, it is possible that Alessandro knows much more, but he sure has not answered the questions that would help us to understand that. So, either there is a language barrier and he does not understand what we are asking or he knows the people will not like his answers so he is remaining silent. He also just may not want to answer the questions, in which case he should just say he does not want to share that info. He came on that thread basically saying as long as people played nice he would answer questions. People were being respectful and trying to find answers. He then disappeared and people assumed he split and was avoiding the forum to answer the questions being posed. I do not know the truth to that, but I would hope, that if he wanted to help the community understand this mutation, he would have answered more of the questions. He has the right to not share any info, but by doing so, he leaves it open for people to make assumptions, and that is usually always worse than what the actual truth is.

Originally Posted by whiskersmom

That is a quote from Intense Herpetoculture, from the link I posted previously. I understand it's about geckos but couldn't that be applied here? I've not read where Australia is having a problem with BD's dying off from Adenovirus, so is it because of the inbreeding that everyone keeps bringing up to develop color that has possibly made this virus so strong in captive breds?

I think it's highly possible that we've weakened their systems by inbreeding to the point that they can't fight off the virus, not to mention coccidia, parasites, etc.

That's exactly what I was talking about. We've already weakened them so much that further weakening them just can't be good.

Wait...wasn't what they were telling us was part of the reason our dragons have Adenovirus, is because they're already inbred, to an extent? So now, we're going to make them even more susceptible to things like this? This is all just not making any sort of sense to me.