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Old 02-15-2011, 01:51 AM   #1
Classic Dum's
whats everyones opinion of the scalless cornsnakes?

these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss, im curious what everyone thinks, thanks
 
Old 02-15-2011, 11:12 AM   #2
TripleMoonsExotic
I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 05:44 PM   #3
AK907
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic View Post
I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.


Now if these studies were to find that these animals were healthy and happy, I'd love to own one. More needs to be known about them first before any more selective breeding is done in my opinion.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 06:21 PM   #4
snowgyre
According to scientific literature, water loss is the same between scaleless snakes and scaled snakes. Granted, this is one of only two papers I could find, and they were both published in the 70s.

Bennett, A.F. and P. Licht. 1975. Evaporative water loss in scaleless snakes. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 52:213-215.

Abstract:
1. Rates of water loss were measured in two aberrant scaleless water snakes, Natrix sipedon, and in six normal animals.
2. Pulmocutaneous water loss of the scaleless animals was equal to or less than that of the controls at 20, 27, and 34C.
3. The thermal dependence of pulmocutaneous water loss in all snakes was low (Q10 = 131–189).
4. The proportion of total water loss due to cutaneous evaporation (865%) in a scaleless animal at 20C was similar to that previously reported for normal Natrix.
5. Thus, reptilian scales and their associated features (e.g. thick keratin layers, superficial dermal layer) cannot be considered adaptations for the curtailment of integumentary water loss.


These guys worked with Nerodia, which is a water-loving snake (notice the genus change). To be fair though, I don't think behavior (ie. soaking for an aquatic snake) allowed the scaleless snakes to compensate for evaporative loss, because of the following article:

Baeyens, D.A. and R.L. Rountree. 1983. A comparative study of evaporative water loss and epidermal permeability in an arboreal snake, Opheodrys aestivus, and a semi-aquatic snake, Nerodia rhombifera. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part A: Physiology 76:301-304.

Abstract:
1. Evaporative water loss was compared in two snake species, the arboreal Opheodrys aestivus and the semi-aquatic Nerodia rhombifera.
2. Rates of water loss were significantly higher (P < 0.01) in N. rhombifera than in O. aestivus.
3. Shed epidermis of N. rhombifera was significantly (P < 0.001) more permeable than that of O. aestivus.
4. Following lipid extraction the permeability of shed epidermis increased in both species with the greater increase occurring in O. aestivus.
5. The efficacy of epidermal lipids in reducing cutaneous water loss may be an important adaptation to an arboreal environment in O. aestivus.


In short, if there was any difference between the water loss in scaleless and scaled snakes, we should see it in Nerodia, since their skin is more permeable than other species of snakes. Since corn snakes aren't aquatic, their skin probably has a higher fat content than water snakes, and therefore their ability to retain water should be fine even in relatively dry situations.

Granted, I have never owned a scaleless corn, so I'm not sure what kind of anecdotal evidence some of you may have. But the scientific literature seems pretty clear... water loss is similar between scaled and scaleless snakes. However, scales have a multitude of functions, not the least of which is protection from abrasions and depredation. In the wild this is probably a very significant danger to scaleless snakes, but in captivity these risks are obviously minimized or non-existent.
 
Old 02-15-2011, 10:16 PM   #5
TripleMoonsExotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowgyre View Post
According to scientific literature, water loss is the same between scaleless snakes and scaled snakes. Granted, this is one of only two papers I could find, and they were both published in the 70s.

In short, if there was any difference between the water loss in scaleless and scaled snakes, we should see it in Nerodia, since their skin is more permeable than other species of snakes. Since corn snakes aren't aquatic, their skin probably has a higher fat content than water snakes, and therefore their ability to retain water should be fine even in relatively dry situations.

Granted, I have never owned a scaleless corn, so I'm not sure what kind of anecdotal evidence some of you may have. But the scientific literature seems pretty clear... water loss is similar between scaled and scaleless snakes. However, scales have a multitude of functions, not the least of which is protection from abrasions and depredation. In the wild this is probably a very significant danger to scaleless snakes, but in captivity these risks are obviously minimized or non-existent.
As I stated, I had read an article in a scientific journal (much more recent then the 70's) that states they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. The study was done on some sort of colubrid, but I can't recall what species. I did not save the article, but I posted it on Cornsnakes.com 1-2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in one of the ones in print I have here, but if I come across it again, I will be sure to post it.

You are right though, the dangers to being scaleless in captivity are much, much less then in the wild.
 
Old 02-16-2011, 12:01 AM   #6
Classic Dum's
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic View Post
I think visually, they're wicked looking. However, I think it's a fine line in regards to ethics. Their has been a handful of studies done on various scaleless reptile species that state they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. I've even read some studies that suggest the animals are in constant pain. I think more scientific studies should be done before they're mass produced for the public. If in fact they do have health issues, ethically I think the breeders need to look at the quality of life of the animal before their wallet.
i would love to see these studies, to back that up, constant pain? were the studies conducted by peta? that alone is enough to tell me these studies are a little far fetcdh, what kind of reptile? what kind of studies exactly, ive know people whom have had scaless texas rats since the 80's health breeding etc no diff then their scaled counter parts
 
Old 02-16-2011, 12:05 AM   #7
Classic Dum's
Quote:
Originally Posted by TripleMoonsExotic View Post
As I stated, I had read an article in a scientific journal (much more recent then the 70's) that states they are susceptible to dehydration and have sun sensitivity. The study was done on some sort of colubrid, but I can't recall what species. I did not save the article, but I posted it on Cornsnakes.com 1-2 years ago. I'm pretty sure it wasn't in one of the ones in print I have here, but if I come across it again, I will be sure to post it.

You are right though, the dangers to being scaleless in captivity are much, much less then in the wild.
so in otherwords you have nothing to back up what IMO is nonsense

now can we please stay on topic? my ? was "these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss," do you have anything you can ad to my ?
 
Old 02-16-2011, 12:19 AM   #8
AbsoluteApril
my opinion.. don't like them. they're interesting to look at and I wonder if they are soft like petting a sphynx cat, but I want scales on my snakes and I don't really want them to be soft. Color/pattern morphs are fine. again, just my opinion, no offense meant to anyone that likes them


will it be popular.. time will tell I guess
 
Old 02-16-2011, 12:33 AM   #9
snowgyre
Jason, I think Stephanie was trying to have a discussion on good faith. Your initial question was fairly easy to misinterpret. No reason to get ornery.

Honestly, I like scaleless reptiles. I think the "constant pain" is pretty far fetched and unsubstantiated, since these animals do thrive if taken care of properly. I can see dehydration and perhaps sunburn (?) being an issue for certain species (such as bearded dragon silkies), but other than that, I don't think it's much different than having a hairless rat, cat, or naked bird.
 
Old 02-16-2011, 12:42 AM   #10
TripleMoonsExotic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Dum's View Post
i would love to see these studies, to back that up, constant pain? were the studies conducted by peta? that alone is enough to tell me these studies are a little far fetcdh, what kind of reptile? what kind of studies exactly, ive know people whom have had scaless texas rats since the 80's health breeding etc no diff then their scaled counter parts
Not that I'm aware of. Your guess is as good as mine on funding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic Dum's View Post
so in otherwords you have nothing to back up what IMO is nonsense
No, that is not at all what I said. Perhaps you should reread my last post? Will I go through and dig for the article just because it was brought up here? No, I do have other things to do and I did post it on Cornsnakes.com 1-2 years ago. I was attempting to have a discussion which seems to have been lost on you. BTW, your question was "whats everyones opinion of the scalless cornsnakes? these gonna be as popul;ar as many of the other morphs or gonna be hit or miss, im curious what everyone thinks, thanks" and I provided what I thought and what little information I gleaned on them from several years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowgyre
Jason, I think Stephanie was trying to have a discussion on good faith. Your initial question was fairly easy to misinterpret. No reason to get ornery.

Honestly, I like scaleless reptiles. I think the "constant pain" is pretty far fetched and unsubstantiated, since these animals do thrive if taken care of properly. I can see dehydration and perhaps sunburn (?) being an issue for certain species (such as bearded dragon silkies), but other than that, I don't think it's much different than having a hairless rat, cat, or naked bird.
Thank you. I'm not at all stating that the studies are 100% accurate, I did in fact say that I believe more studies should be done to substantiate the information one way or another.
 

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