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Old 05-25-2020, 05:33 PM   #501
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
This caught my eye because it is false, because no one knows how long it will be before coming out is safer, although there is good evidence that vaccines aren't going to take forever. And the work at home changes mean that a lot of people can lie low for a fair amount of time. We're all worried about the economy, but I at least plan to do my best to stay alive through all this.

I think the unprotected throngs at the beaches are fools and worse. You may have a different perspective, and if so and you go out there, you are betting your life on it. You seem nice enough, I'll be sorry if the consequences of your actions catch up with you.
Lucille, you got me there and you are absolutely right. I am totally wrong and I made horrible misstatement. I should not have used the word "forever", but the word "indefinitely".
Quote:
I like April's post, there is definitely truth there.
I too like April's chart. I'd like to think that I find myself in the center. Many people cannot get out of the 'fear' circle enough to see increasing danger to the others.

I would reiterate that I am getting older, in my 60s, and have several chronic health problems that put me in the high risk category. Should I get this Wuhan Virus, I entertain no fantasy of survival and certainly don't want to tempt fate. Nor do I wish to be the 'Typhoid Mary' among my friends and relatives.

My problem is that, having survived these health crises and a few other things I need not go into, I find life and time on earth precious. I was paralyzed with fear/apprehension for a while, can't say otherwise, but I've had to come to grips with my vulnerability and decided to move forward with life. It IS a balance. Ask my docs, and they'll tell me to routinely stay away from people and crowded areas. Under normal circumstances, I cannot/will not. I need to balance the risk of exposure to many illnesses with the ability and desire to be a productive member of this society. My job requires me to meet people from the least sophisticated laborer to the most affluent client and attend meetings consisting of a half-dozen people, some from across the country.

The reason I am telling you this is so that you understand that I personally don't have a dog in the fight here. I really don't directly benefit if we all go back to work or not, I'm already working overtime. I will say that the bubble can't go in indefinitely, and at some point we will have to close the doors, and many good people will be completely unemployed, plus me.

We own the building we're in and have tenants. One tenant works with school kids. They haven't worked since March, but they did make rent last month. We have another tenant that works with younger kids and they couldn't make rent for the last month and they won't make it next month either. How long can we hold the bag on the mortgage when we have substantially reduced building income? We still need to pay the mortgage, water, electric, insurance - none of that stuff really stops. Our reserves allow us to keep working, but we cannot carry two or more other businesses indefinitely. Our tenants may have to close down, whether we demand rent or not, so there are probably 30 families in our building alone with lives in the balance, waiting for the next capricious declaration by our local tyrant-shepard.

My local pet shop has been open, but with very limited access. The command from above dictates no more than 10 people in the store at once (same as the 7-11 that's 1/10th the size, so let's do say "capricious), and they have to have 7 people on duty for minimal staffing. This means three actual customers in the store at one time and the rest of us lined up outside. This is horrific for a store that normally has 20-30 people milling around inside and a BIG crowd on weekends. The owner has cut his people's hours in half, because if he completely lays them off, it works against his 'stimulus loan' and it won't be turned into a grant unless he retains a certain number of employees, I think it was 66%, but I'm not sure. This is really hard on the employees, who don't get extravagent money anyway. They can't quit, because they would be DQ'ed for unemployment, and they can't make it on half pay. The owner is causing their distress by not either laying them off or calling them back, but he is trying to follow the .guv's rules to save his business... Staying off 'indefinitely' is really not an option for them either and each time I go by there. I am pleasantly surprised the lights are still on.

These are the people being crippled by shut-downs that are being held in place beyond what evolving evidence seems to dictate, and beyond what goals we were originally told we needed to meet.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 06:14 PM   #502
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril View Post
a venomous snake bite victim is neither asymptomatic nor contagious
No, but the health/death threat to the keeper and to neighbors is VERY real, but normally a sufficiently managed risk by using good practice. As I said above; 'devil's advocate' and in giving this example, I hoped to more clearly illustrate the folly of imposing bad/ineffective/inappropriate law on all of us for the sake of "what might happen".

"...nor contagious" depends on whether or not the snake is found, and how, LOL.
Quote:
Flattening the curve and trying to avoid a second wave all seem like good goalposts to avoid more deaths.
Agreed, but many localities have met both and now they want to wait for a vaccine. "September...maybe.".
Quote:
Sadly so many either 'don't believe the hype' or have the 'it's won't happen to me' mentality that is ends up putting others at unneeded potential risk.
Yes, there are those folks, and then there are folks who think that because THEY are afraid, everyone should be afraid. There are folks that are chronically afraid and this is just today's focus.

When the mainstream media repeatedly shows dishonesty in reporting on this, leaning towards making it worse than it really is, when they (without qualification) criticize medical professionals for the drugs they prescribe and try to steer us away from ALL potential remedies except mail-in voting and Bill Gate's vaccines, their credibility "slips a little".

Anyone who has had Windows (I've run it since 3.1 (replaced DOS) and up through W-10) will not trust Bill Gates with a Timex wristwatch, let alone an injectable vaccine. Anybody remember Africa? https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...es-it-targets/
Anybody know he won't vaccinate his own kids?
https://www.uspoliticsandnews.com/wh...-own-children/
Criminey...

If they are easily caught in these blatant lies, how many little lies do they get away with. You do of course realize that they consider it THEIR JOB to "tell you what to think". Not to "tell you the facts and let you do the critical thinking" (who's got time for that?) I don't know anything about the messenger, but the message is VERY clear.
https://twitter.com/tteegar/status/834440794375327744

So, pardon me if I have trouble believing ANYTHING MSM tells me, and anymore, I inclined to believe that whatever they say, the opposite will be true.
Quote:
Where is the line? How much is too much? Hard to say.
Hard to say, indeed. If only we could get truth. Things would be much easier if we could say "We did the best we could with what we knew.", but we know too little for that approach...

Our state governors have applied and enforced some really bad "laws". The Constitution (pesky though it may be) provides us with protection against the unilateral decision making inherent to dictatorship and the limits on what government can do have been exceeded. We, as a people, have tolerated this because we are afraid and dare not stand for our rights 'because virus'. Time has run on and many people have come to realize that this is being dragged out. So 'the line' moves from "Jeeze, we're scared shitless, please save us no matter what", to ""What's actually going on here?".
Quote:
If this is all some conspiracy for government police state or something, it's pretty amazing how the whole world is in on it.
No, not a worldwide conspiracy to spread the virus at our expense, that's a bit of a stretch. I WILL say that certain political factions are present that are using this situation to their benefit and the citizenry's detriment. It will be clear to anyone looking on with a critical eye that some people want their state shut down to save it, but then promote practices that work to spread the illness. I don't to go down a political rabbit hole in this thread, but I am becoming more and more convinced that there is something else going on with this economic attack besides just this virus reaction.

Let's see what happens, I don't know any other answer. I said that before about TX, FL & GA and they are doing OK, in spite of opening. No 'blood in the streets' that MSM likes to predict... Let's see what happens to the Beach Blanket crowd...perfect chance to test a hypothesis.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 08:17 PM   #503
WebSlave
Honestly, I think it is too soon to see the actual results of any state "opening up" quite yet. This virus can have a long incubation period (hence the 2 week typical quarantine) while the asymptomatic carriers can spread infection, so I think it would be wise to allow more time to pass before passing any judgement as to whether or not the "opening up" was successful or not. I assume that when I see statistic TODAY, I am actually looking at the state of affairs concerning confirmed infections as they were two weeks ago.

Personally, I prefer to wait it out as long as is possible to do so. I am also firmly in the camp that the fat lady hasn't sung yet concerning this pandemic thing, and we have yet to see the later acts that might be in store for us. We have been lucky (relatively speaking) with other previous epidemics. Not so lucky with the Spanish Flu. Which way will this one go? I doubt anyone really knows at this point. But personally I think it will be very foolish to assume that just because over the Summer that things might slow down a lot, that next Winter is just going to be a picnic. I believe we are a long way from being out of the woods with this.

As for a vaccine? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Quite honestly, I don't get flu shots, and I certainly am not going to get this vaccine, neither. Especially when this is obviously on the fast track, and long term safety be damned.

So suppose you were in charge. Assume that you don't know everything there is to know about this, and history has shown that people you would hope you could trust with advice are likely lying to you. Based on what information you have been able to gather that seems plausible, you have to assume that one of two scenarios is likely to play out.
  1. If you close down the economy to reduce the number of ready candidates for infection by the virus and even though you appear to have been successful, then you will be blamed for the destruction of the economy.
  2. If you do not close down the economy and let everyone go about their business like there is no infection to worry about, and there are many MANY infections and deaths as a result, you will be blamed for all of those cases and resulting deaths.

Pick one.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 10:37 PM   #504
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post

To say they lack thought might be a at least a little bit judgemental and harsh. Perhaps they did think about it, but couldn't. Even if they do have an epiphany, what then? Suicide?
The lack of thought (and inevitable decimation) referred to was the flocking to the beaches and losing their ability to work because of being infected there. The grasshopper reference was for those who partied all summer. The traditional ant/grasshopper story is relevant not simply because the grasshoppers did not save. As you pointed out, some cannot. But the grasshoppers used their summer to party, a deliberate choice of the use of their time. If someone becomes infected while doing their job especially in the health industries, I feel sad for them. If they become infected while frolicking at the beach during a pandemic I have very little sympathy.

If the frolickers realize too late that they have screwed themselves, what then?

Good question.

Especially if innocent children are involved, and they have nothing because their schmuck of a daddy partied at the beach and died after drawing the Covid short straw.

I can only answer for myself: I'd be willing to help the kids. The schmucks that partied, and lived but are damaged? That would take some thought. There is a point where 'thinking for yourself' and insisting that you have the freedom to gather and party despite the risks, means taking personal responsibility for your actions.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 02:08 AM   #505
WebSlave
Been reading about people recommending large dosages of vitamin C in relation to virus infections, and this video popped up into the conversation. Pretty interesting stuff.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aABnP1HSUVI
 
Old 05-26-2020, 01:21 PM   #506
E.Shell
Hit & Run post: CDC's newest numbers:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/cdc...d-19-realities
 
Old 05-26-2020, 01:51 PM   #507
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
Hit & Run post: CDC's newest numbers:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/cdc...d-19-realities
The title of that article is "CDC Confirms Remarkably Low Death Rate - Media Chooses To Ignore COVID-19 Realities".

Honestly, I'm not sure which one I trust the least, the CDC or the Media.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 02:13 PM   #508
WebSlave
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
Now, we face what seems to be an engineered virus and the following facts are coming to light:
1) The virus was developed in, and escaped from, the only Level 4 containment facility in China - the Wuhan lab.
2) CCP closed off Wuhan from the rest of China, whilst allowing international air traffic to continue, effective seeding the planet with this disease.
3) While seeding the world, China quietly bought up PPE from the world over, stockpiling gear while the WHO (presided over by an China-installed executive) denied the seriousness of the illness, denied transmission through dry surfaces, through air and through person-to-person contact.
4) Once the Wuhan Virus became known and widespread, China then sold the PPE back out to the world, at many times the original cost/pricing, along with a lot of PPE that failed QC and didn't work.

Those are facts.

Another fact that doen't get a lot of air time is that China was only shut down for 16 days...Go ahead...speculate...I do...

My reaction to these facts is that even IF China did not release this intentionally, they DID do everything they could to make it about as bad as possible. They denied help, evaded questions, denied knowledge and falsified information that may have helped to contain this early on.

Like it or not, and we are all entitled to our opinions, this actually constitutes an attack. If not deliberate, then every effort to exacerbate the situation was taken to our detriment.

Believing this is an attack, makes me not want to let them destroy our country, which IS happening right now, as we snuggle under the blankets, safe and warm.

That Wall Street is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing, that many of our politicians enjoy 'special relationships' with China (like Feinstein's chauffeur) and are also heavily invested, that much of the media is invested both in China and in the politicians, has HUGE bearing on what we are fed and I expect the truth to surface about as easily as getting all of your wisdom teeth out in one trip.
Yeah, this is quite an interesting, and as best I can tell, quite accurate, assessment of the situation. Point of the matter is that this could be construed as an act of war.

I would imagine that the discussion about this behind closed doors involves the question of whether or not the USA can afford a hot war with China. Greed in the USA allowed the Chinese to place us over a barrel by gutting our industry and turning us into simply importers and resellers. What happens if China simply refuses to sell the USA anything any longer? And I don't believe for an instant that this wasn't intentional on China's part. Why do you think they tried hard not to become dependent on imports from the USA and there has always been that huge trade deficit?

I strongly suspect that the USA government knows a LOT more about this virus than they are admitting publicly. But that information is quite likely the equivalent of having a tiger by it's tail. What are the USA's options? It appears to me that the option chosen, for now, is simply biting their tongues.

"Made in China" was a long term strategy of war, IMHO. And it appears to be a successful one, at that.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 06:12 PM   #509
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post
Honestly, I think it is too soon to see the actual results of any state "opening up" quite yet. This virus can have a long incubation period (hence the 2 week typical quarantine) while the asymptomatic carriers can spread infection, so I think it would be wise to allow more time to pass before passing any judgement as to whether or not the "opening up" was successful or not. I assume that when I see statistic TODAY, I am actually looking at the state of affairs concerning confirmed infections as they were two weeks ago.
Georgia has been partially open since April 27, then more things, like dine-ins, were phased in the following week, so, it's been....
https://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2020/04...ting-april-24/

Texas is still pretty fresh, they started phasing in openings May 5:
https://gov.texas.gov/organization/opentexas

Florida started their phased in opening April 30th...
The governor said among the biggest impediments to opening was hysteria.
https://www.newsweek.com/florida-gov...pacity-1501070

My state, Maryland, has relaxed state restrictions and has somehow delegated this presumed authority to the local County Executives. In one way, it's good to be able to separate places because we have some rural areas that are almost unaffected and some urban areas that are truly festering. In another way, it is outrageous enough that a state governor presume to confine well people to their homes (which is NOT "quarantine", BTW), but to then allow this tremendous power to a mere minion, a county official? Where's my damn tar bucket, and hand me that chicken...

Believe it or not, this "Freedom/Liberty" thing should be VERY closely guarded. We were blindsided (depending on who you ask) and our immediate knee-jerk reaction was to go along with anything, just save meeee....

A precedent was struck, in that we ALLOWED this illegal behavior, welcomed it, even.

A lesson was learnt by our betters, and that was ruling from a state of fear still works just fine.

I do NOT suggest that we should not have ceased spreading the virus, but there are legal procedures to be followed that protect our precious rights. Procedures that prevent unilateral decisions (of dubious wisdom) that affect the health, safety and quality of life for the people they represent.

Quote:
So suppose you were in charge. Assume that you don't know everything there is to know about this, and history has shown that people you would hope you could trust with advice are likely lying to you. Based on what information you have been able to gather that seems plausible, you have to assume that one of two scenarios is likely to play out.
  1. If you close down the economy to reduce the number of ready candidates for infection by the virus and even though you appear to have been successful, then you will be blamed for the destruction of the economy.
  2. If you do not close down the economy and let everyone go about their business like there is no infection to worry about, and there are many MANY infections and deaths as a result, you will be blamed for all of those cases and resulting deaths.

Pick one.
This 'pick one' is the problem we seem to have, a final solution in binary.

You either is or you ain't.

Just glancing at that 'Liberty' word at the top of the page here for a second...

Of course, it's super-easy to armchair quarterback this stuff from the safety of my moated castle...

My choice?
A one-two punch.

#1: Recommend immediate shut down as an emergency measure, using the state's representative body (general assembly, etc.) to provide actual legal/constitutional authority to do so. If The Peoples' representatives don't condone it, then the governor, the highest ranking official, BEHIND The People, and STILL just a damn *representative*, has to go with what our reps choose. These unilateral, totalitarian, tyrannical one-person decisions are clearly capricious and our legal system was never intended to accommodate royalty or to accommodate domination without representation.

Assuming a shutdown was approved:
#2: Constantly evaluate conditions** and make the recommendation to re-open as soon as possible, again, taking this legal matter to The Peoples' representatives. Knowing that damage is done either way, and having mitigated one threat, we will mitigate the next set of threats as quickly as is possible.

The 'next set' of threats include some of what we're seeing:
Civil disobedience - people are tired of being limited, and many, seeing conflicting reports, finally realize they're being lied to. Some of the backlash, such as the crowds at the beach Lucille had pointed out, is a venting of frustration, plus early-on the media convinced younger folks they weren't affected and they started calling it the 'Boomer Killer' or something equally catchy.
Another thing we are seeing with civil disobedience, are the churches trying to hold services. The government is specifically forbidden to meddle in religion and yet, they presume the authority to order closure of churches.
Personal financial ruin - Many people have a hard time making it now. To lose weeks/months of work and/or business opportunity can be the last straw.
Marital/Family issues - many couples argue about 'money' during GOOD times... I'd venture a wild guess that many couples are also pretty sick of each other by now.
Business failures - The restaurant business is known to be a very 'narrow margin' business and how they can even continue to serve carry-out is amazing to me. If half of the little Mom-n-Pop restaurants and stores survive, I'll be surprised.
Rentals - anyone renting property right now has had their property rights revoked and hands tied with regard to delinquent rent collection and subsequent recovery actions. Why? The gov decreed this to forestall evictions 'because virus'. In many cases it makes sense to ride it out vs losing a good tenant anyway, but in many cases, that money is gone forever. Your own moral dilemma, not the 'guv's.

**This approach assumes that good information is being delivered by people who do not have political and financial interests at stake - something sorely lacking in our current situation. A chronic "lack of candor", to borrow the government's term for government employees lying to government employees about other government employees...and stuff.

As with any decision, you can only do the best you can with the information you HAVE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
The lack of thought (and inevitable decimation) referred to was the flocking to the beaches and losing their ability to work because of being infected there. The grasshopper reference was for those who partied all summer. The traditional ant/grasshopper story is relevant not simply because the grasshoppers did not save. As you pointed out, some cannot. But the grasshoppers used their summer to party, a deliberate choice of the use of their time. If someone becomes infected while doing their job especially in the health industries, I feel sad for them. If they become infected while frolicking at the beach during a pandemic I have very little sympathy.
I apologize Lucille, I misconstrued your statement. Very sorry.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 07:35 PM   #510
WebSlave
“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke


https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020...flu-pandemic#1

Quote:
The first wave of the 1918 pandemic occurred in the spring and was generally mild. The sick, who experienced such typical flu symptoms as chills, fever and fatigue, usually recovered after several days, and the number of reported deaths was low.

However, a second, highly contagious wave of influenza appeared with a vengeance in the fall of that same year. Victims died within hours or days of developing symptoms, their skin turning blue and their lungs filling with fluid that caused them to suffocate. In just one year, 1918, the average life expectancy in America plummeted by a dozen years.
https://www.history.com/topics/world...8-flu-pandemic


Personally, I think it is far too early in the learning curve of this new virus to be jumping to any conclusions that it is safe to ignore it.

We could very well just be ONLY in the first wave of many many. This is something that we will not realize until looking back at it in hindsight, maybe detailing all of the choices we made that could very well have made a dramatic difference in the outcome.

As has been said, "better to be safe than sorry", and "hope for the best, but plan for the worst".

But it is your health and your life. Make your own choices about what you think is best for you.

And actually I agree that I don't like the government at any level telling me what to do "for my own good". But in this case I don't feel like that is the case at all, because I am making my own decisions that just happen to coincide with that the government is trying to impress on people with a conflicting mindset. I believe there is a good chance this is VERY serious and deserves to be avoided if humanly possible. Some people don't think that way and would rather not take such precautions.

I am fine with my decision, and I presume they are fine with theirs. At the moment, anyway. Heck, I hope I am wrong. But what if I am not? That is where the dilemma rises up. What if the people who think this is a "nothingburger" turn out to be wrong instead? I assume that no one is likely any more psychic than I am, and no one REALLY knows what the future holds for this virus and us.

Personally, my solution would be to simply have people who have no overriding necessary reason to be out and about and choose to not play this as safe as then can, just accept a waiver of society's medical responsibility for them. Then they can go on about their life in the manner they choose to do so. But if their choices turn out to be poor ones, well, get out of my way and don't take up a slot in the hospital emergency room if my wife or I need to go to the hospital in case our more cautious attempts to avoid the contagion fail. If you make your choices, fine, you need to take your own responsibility for the results of those choices. You made a mistake, so you bear the consequences, no one else. And no one else should have to suffer because of your mistake. Seems simple enough, doesn't it? You catch the virus, we don't OWE you a thing.

A bit cold though, yes? But this definitely could be a prime example of the "cake and eating it too" problem.

IMHO, BTW.
 

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