DWARF Leopard Geckos???

i know of koi goldfish crosses.. i had a friend big into those damn fish (fact)
now the reason christina is as "unbiased" as she is, is because she does not know any better (opion based on factual information)... these "dwarf "traits have been proven or rather disproven by four very large scale breeders (fact)... now how is that being a hypocrite? (question) it was proven/unproven MANY years back (fact).. these are nothing new (fact) and they do nothing but polute the gene pool with a genetic defect that pops up every so often (opinions based on factual information)

no leopard geckos arent hard to breed in fact they are easy.... the hard things to breed we keep in the snake room... well some of them are hard others are easy.
two things i can think of easier to breed than leo geckos... roaches and rats... those are easier

This thread is going great guys..... My hat off to all of you...... Anyway, none of us here are purist, but you do not need to be a purist to know what is right or wrong for a captive population..... Sure we can have some purist opinions but we as reptile KEEPERS can not be 100% purist...... It is true that a species can be weakend by captive propogation..... But why would you want to breed bad genetics into a captive population to make them weaker, when you can easily keep these defects out of it???? Our stocks might be weaker ( though this is not proven nor is it my opinion in all cases) than their wild cousins but all of us that breed with "ethics" are making them stronger for life in captivity..... Which in this case is all that matters...... I do not see any breeder going to Afgan to let their leo hatchlings go.... I do not think reptiles can be domesticated but leopard geckos are the closest thing we will see to a domesticated reptile...... So it is our job as hobbiest or breeders to make sure the captive population does not get poluted with kinked tails, bug eyes, no eyes, dwarves or any other debilitating genetic or temperature inflicted defect..... I do not feel a leo born with a defect should be killed in all cases...... But if it does make it out of the egg and lives a somewhat normal life it should not be used as a breeder...... If it has a severe defect that will hinder it quality of life, the only right thing to do is kill it..... That is an unfortunate thing breeders may have to go through at some point..... You can pretty much take whatever you have learned from books or in class studies and through it out of the window because what applies in the natural world does not always apply in captivity...... But again there are some things that we as hobbiests or breeders can not let slide into our captive populations and genetic deformities is one of them......

YAY gregg... i recycle, if i get any deformities i feed them to the aurics... it may sound cold but that is how life goes.. putting down a baby vs. feeding on to a gecko known for eating other geckos.. its the cycle of life

Outstanding post, Gregg!!! And James, I think you have conducted yourself in a very professional manner considering the scrutiny you have been put under.

and i have been nice as well

Robin, I am especially proud of the way you have conducted yourself on this thread! You should have a few points deleted as a reward!!!!

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Our stocks might be weaker ( though this is not proven nor is it my opinion in all cases) than their wild cousins but all of us that breed with "ethics" are making them stronger for life in captivity..

I wish this were the case, but it really isn't. If making them stronger for life in captivity were the true objective, we would be breeding for strong immune systems and calm temperaments, NOT for certain color or pattern morphs. Our interests lie in the cosmetics of the animal, not in its genetic representation of the species' strength. Simply filtering out physical defects such as a dwarfism, kinked tails, eyelid deformities, misshapen jaws, etc. helps on the surface level, but what are we really doing to the species when we purposefully work with limited gene pools that may very well produce flaws generations later?

If improving the species as a whole were the objective, then we would be breeding for survivability in the wild. This means breeding for the leos that scream the most as hatchlings, evade your hand the most, never get to like you, have the sharpest hunting skills, and blend into the environment (i.e., no bright tangs or albinos). Now who here seriously does that?

As long as amateurs (and I don't exclude myself from this label) are allowed to breed the species and propogate desired and undesired flaws alike--flaws that are both immediately noticeable and not--no one here can claim to be strengthening the species.

Xelda, good point but again what applies in nature does not apply in captivity..... Especially now that there are no more wild caught imports brought into this country...... They will not run into the same problems they run into in the wild..... Captive living is alot different than wild living...... And calm temperments would go hand in hand with the color morphs.... That is a desired trait just like tangerines..... How calm do you think a wild leo would be if you tried to pick one up in the wild????LOL....Plus there is no way to breed for stronger immune systems...... I would also like to see where the proof is that captive leos have compromised immune systems to begin with.... Sorry but that statment is only speculation on your part.... Besides that, most breeders only pick the best looking and healthiest animals to breed....I do not know a breeder that doesnt.... Like I said leos are the closest a reptile can be to domesticated..... It is hobbiests and breeders responsability to make sure deformities do not make it into the captive populations.....

Is this thread ever going to get locked up????? LOL..... I dont know how much more anyone can add to this..... And I am so glad that it went so well for such a long time..... This is why I still have faith in reptile forums.....