kenneth Yates of South Carolina

Of course, I have no idea as to whether those snakes are alive in the picture. I have to say this, though, it DOES seem as though the person handling the "dead" animals is awfully intent on looking at what is happening at the heads of these critters. His fingers look ready to drop their load with the slightest movement, and the man looks to me like he's holding the snakes as far away from his body as he can, so as to jump out of their way if one or more them should revive quickly.

None of that is proof, but that picture just doesn't look like a man confident in the deceased state of those animals. Not to my eye, anyway.

Originally posted by wilomn
I think it's a bit of a reach as well to assume that the snakes were merely knocked out.

I would not make that assumption, and I see one item in the photo that I think may possibly be an indication to the contrary. But given that the man holding the snakes is well known for having illegal home access to drugs which he uses to immobilize snakes for venomoid "surgery", I'd say that the scenario is perfectly plausible.

If the black were not dead would it be bent the way it is? A live black mamba that close to me would have my hands open and my feet in the air as I propelled myself backwards out of strikng range.

I have monitored black and green mambas during their recovery from anesthesia. Depending on what anesthetic agent and what induction agent is used, you may have a "window" during which the snake is moving and breathing on its own but is far more likely to attempt to crawl away, appearing dazed and disoriented, than it is to react defensively. Reflexes are regained caudally to cranially (tail first) so handlers always have the warning sign of regained muscle tone in the tail before the head will be functional.

Induction agents we have used include Diazepam, Propofol, ketamine (we won't use that one again) acepromazine (likewise) and Telazol (too long on recovery, probably won't use again). Our gold standard for anesthesia maintenance is isoflurane; sevoflurane does have a slightly faster recovery but has been shown to be less stable in reptile anesthesia. We don't use ether.

I would certainly be alert and aware were I holding a recovering mamba in that position, but I would not be jumping away at that time. I would be moving in such a way to "unbalance" the snake slightly and make it more difficult for the animal to come back at me, both behaviorally and physically.

While I was not present for the mamba surgery I was present for several other cobra and rattlesnake surgeries that this guy had Al do. He used ether and sometimes the snakes came out quick and unexpectedly and sometimes they stayed nice and quiet for a long time.

Ether is...well....a bit outdated. I can't tell you too much about recovery times on that drug since it is not used in modern reptile medicine. Recovery from anesthesia is a subject I do pay very close attention to, and we get very consistent and predictable results using modern drugs and controlling patient temperatures.

Holding those snakes like that, were they merely unconscious, is sort of like spitting in Death's eye. I still figure they're dead. I don't blame any of you who suspect other wise but, I can not get on board with this one.

If the anesthetic agent was ether or something else outdated and highly unreliable, I would agree with your assertion. If the anesthetic agent was a modern one, such as what we use in the clinic I work with, that simply is not true. I handle and monitor mamba patients in recovery and human safety is not a great concern as long as attention is paid to caudal reflex recovery. The only thing in that picture that IS a great concern to me if those snakes are unconscious is that they are at risk of health complications from that kind of improper handling while anesthetized.

Look at how I am holding the mamba in the second photo on this page: http://www.kingsnake.com/snakegetter...mamba-jaw.html My priority here is gentle support of an animal that is not breathing and has no muscle tone, not physical restraint. My other hand is on this animal's tail to check for returning caudal reflexes which will be present well before the head is able to move voluntarily. Our veterinary team considers this a completely safe and appropriate protocol for handling anesthetized mambas.

Originally posted by ReticEd
A few tell tail signs in the snake itself, the slight bend in its' back, is a slight twitch from coming down from the anesthetics and waking up.
Notice the belly scales, especially in the deep bend of the neck, all the way to the head.
The snake had just began to come out of the drug induced fog and had righted the front portion of its body (as all snakes will do first) yet at the instant the pic was taken, had not yet become completely awake and aware.

I'm not arguing with you on the rigor part, but about this you're wrong.

Recovery from anesthesia in snakes is caudal to cranial. The snake would not be righting its front portion first, it would be showing caudal reflexes first. If the snake has righting reflex, it already has caudal reflexes back, which means it would be in control of its rear end before it could move its head. This isn't to say that it *would* move its hind end first if there was no stimulus presented to encourage it to do so.

How a snake moves during induction and recovery will vary depending on the induction agent. With dissociatives like ketamine you may see uncoordinated movements, twisting and gaping. The twitching you describe might be seen with dissociatives. With propofol you don't see much of anything; it's a rapid induction and rapid recovery. Isoflurane alone produces an initial "agonal" stage of movement as the snake stops breath holding and goes under, and a slow and fairly predictable recovery. nduction agents (for instance, Diazepam + isoflurane or Telazol + sevoflurane) can further change the variables.

However it's just a basic physiological principle that recovery from anesthesia is caudal to cranial - it starts with the tail, not the head.

Thanks for the great input Tanith

It stems into another sign that popped into my cranium, but did not say here, till now.

Recovery from anesthesia in snakes is caudal to cranial.

Since the shape of the black mamba, if indeed rigored, is nearly the exact shape and curvature of one of the totes that is seen in the lower left of the first picture, to me, along with the explanation from you, about the 'coming to' of snakes, it says that the snake did indeed NOT die while bagged for transit, but later, after arrival and having been placed in a tote, sans bag, for recovery from the surgery or quite possibly while dying when the first bit of anesthesia was administered. Of which the picture was made then, upon discovery of negative patient outcome vs. upon arrival.

If dead when bagged, it would not be in as near perfect of a match with the tote side wall as it is in the picture, but more as if it were laying directly on the floor of a tote.

Originally posted by ReticEd
Since the shape of the black mamba, if indeed rigored, is nearly the exact shape and curvature of one of the totes that is seen in the lower left of the first picture, to me, along with the explanation from you, about the 'coming to' of snakes, it says that the snake did indeed NOT die while bagged for transit, but later, after arrival and having been placed in a tote, sans bag, for recovery from the surgery or quite possibly while dying when the first bit of anesthesia was administered.

It's tremendously difficult to kill a snake with inhalant anesthesia alone unless the animal is already severely debilitated and you aren't ventilating. They have a remarkable tolerance for anoxia.

Now you can screw up quite easily and kill a snake with an incorrect dose of injectable pre-anesthetic agents, but like pain medications, those drugs are very strictly controlled and amateur hackers have a hard time getting hold of them. I don't think they are in common use among venomoiders, though I could be wrong.

I understand that you can purchase ketamine (a dissociative) on the illegal drug market quite easily, and that is one drug used in reptile surgery where fatalities are not uncommon even when the dose is within the published acceptable range. If an amateur screwed up on a ketamine dose, that would be a very serious situation for the animal.

If we were seeing snakes dead from a botched venomoid surgery, my expectation is that it would be post-surgery and there would be physical evidence of how they died. A dead snake's heart may continue to beat for quite some time, and there would be no clear indication to the "surgeon" (excuse me, to the amateur butcher) that the animal was in fact deceased rather than anesthetized until it failed to recover.

A lot of legitimate vets have operated for quite some time on dead reptiles that have a continuing heartbeat according to doppler monitoring. I imagine that the amateur hackers have the same problem, componded by the fact that they don't even have a doppler or a pulse oximeter.

A tote bag is a completely unacceptable place to put a patient who is in recovery from surgical anesthesia, but I have no idea what amateur venomoiders who are practicing illegal, inappropriate and invasive surgeries without a license may consider acceptable. So your scenario is, once again, perfectly plausible.

Any time a known venomoid hacker complains that animals showed up DOA and asks for his money back, there is going to be some doubt as to how the animals actually died, and a certainty that he has a lot of dead snakes handy in his freezer. I suggest that clear photos of the head and mouth region as well as the snake's entire body for identification purposes should be taken. This does not seem like too extreme a demand, nor would it be more than a few minutes' extra work to accomplish in order to clear up this particular suspicion.

The pic of the master voider ritchey holding the snakes said it all for me.
Total incrimination, kevin was braindead to not think of that .
bleep

Originally posted by bud mierkey
dont you think its better the snakes were dead than to have them go through your primitive hacking venomoid process?
would not death be preferable?

If you were about to be tortured by going through surgery without pain relief medications, and you were given the option of euthanasia instead of enduring the surgery, what would you pick? It's not really an easy question.

I oppose venomoid surgery because of humane concerns for the animals. I am also concerned when I see other people condemning venomoids for what I think may be the wrong reasons. Making venomoids is basically about human ego. Opposing the existence of venomoids and saying that they should all be put to death is also about human ego.

To some people, once a snake has been voided, it loses its "cool factor" and is no longer socially acceptable. That's still human ego talking, and it's exactly the same kind of thinking that leads to making snakes venomoid in the first place. Snakes are not penis substitutes or ego buffers; they are living, feeling creatures worthy of respect and care. If you really need a big ego boost, buy a big expensive car that gets lousy gas mileage, get a prescription for Viagra and leave the snakes alone.

For me it's all about helping and healing the patient in need, easing pain and preserving function, and giving merciful euthanasia when quality of life cannot be preserved. These are the ethics of veterinary medicine. Venomoid surgeries are absolutely contrary to these ethics and I oppose them for that specific reason.

But let's please remember that a venomoid snake is not a thing to be held in contempt, but in compassion as a victim of human greed. They are no different from a rattlesnake with a fused backbone and ugly scars that survived an attack with a shovel, or a Gaboon viper imported with festering noose wounds from a botched capture. Yes, these animals are cripples. No, they aren't ever going to be the shining prizes of anyone's collection. But they are alive, and they feel and suffer, and they deserve our compassion and care. It is the abusers who deserve our condemnation, not the abuse victims.

you guys are not vets and work out of a garage with news papers and playdough. what goes around comes around.

With that I have no arguments whatsoever.

There is a possible loss of respect towards the voider.
knowing what they do to the snakes without a license.
non professonal animal mutilators as low as they can go for a buck.
being a illegal voider possibly people selling you a snake will think heck hes just going to hack it anyway so who cares.
send him near dead snakes.
here is a strange thought a legit voider!
I dont think it happens to much.

so kennith might have figured if I get the voiders who will care hehe .

Message deleted - violation of FULL NAME rule. - WebSlave

Gregg

You do realize that this thread has been dead and buried for 4 months right?