BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

In 2009 I purchased an 07 BHB Spider 100% het Hypo male from Chris Huffman. Chris is a good friend of mine and we've done numerous trades etc over the years. I know Chris has done a number of transactions with Brian and the Spider came directly from BHB.

I bred the male Spider to two unrelated virgin 100% het Hypo females. One was a 'normal' 100% het Hypo from Mike Wilbanks. The other female is a new co-dom 100% het Hypo that was produced by Chris Huffman. I got a total of 13 eggs from the two females and sold the male to Cliff Edwards prior to the eggs hatching out. All 13 hatched and there were no visual Hypos.

I contacted Cliff to let him know what had happened. I reassured him that I just hit bad odds and that the male would prove out for him. On 9/29/09 I sent an email to Brian and Cliff just so everyone was on the same page at that point. I got a response from Brian the following day.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

Sorry to hear you has such bad odds. I'm hoping that's all it is and next year you'll go the other way, but I do appreciate you keeping me in the loop. Please stay in touch about it going forward. Thanks, Brian

Fast forward to April and Cliff hatches out his first clutch from this BHB Spider to another unrelated 100% het Hypo. Cliff got five eggs, for a total of 18 sired by this male, and again there were no visual Hypos. April 10th I sent Brian another email, letting him know the status of these eggs hatching out. I raised the possibility of the Spider not being a het after all. And again I got a response the very next day.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

HI,

Of course there is always a chance of something terrible like that happening. I'm not going to lie and say there is no way. It does sound like with those odds something is wrong? Lets talk on the phone and see if there is anything we can do to try to figure this out. I always stand behind my stuff and I will do my best to make it right. Call me anytime this week before Wednesday, I'll be out of town for five days after that on business. Talk soon, Brian

I personally hate doing things over the phone, especially when there is a disagreement, as there is no evidence after the fact. It took multiple tries to get Brian on the phone but he seemed willing to 'make things right'. He basically stated that I would have to wait until July or August when he had things hatching out. I wasn't happy with that answer but I didn't have much of a choice.

I emailed Brian July 15th just to see how things were looking and got no response. I waited a few weeks and tried again August 4th and again got no response. Called multiple times, left voicemails and two messages with Lori and still got no response from Brian. I sent another email August 18th and got an auto-response that he was in Daytona until the 25th of August. So I wait again and send ANOTHER email September 4th and what do you know?!? No response... starting to see a pattern here? Another email sent September 14th and I finally get a response from Brian. So after five emails, multiple phone calls and messages left and it takes TWO MONTHS to get a response from Brian.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

Sorry I have not been ignoring intentionally. I have been out of town mor ethen in town and when I have been in town I have been swamped trying to get things in control. To be honest Lori has not given me any messages from you, but that's probably because she see how frazzled I am over the past couple of months. I am heading to Canada tomorrow for the Toronto show. I will be back on Monday afternoon. Lets try to touch base Tuesday or Wednesday and see what we can work out. I am not trying to avoid it. Thanks, Brian

At this point, from September 14 to September 28 I did get Brian to respond to a few of my emails and we tried to work a deal out. Brian wanted to just give me a credit for the lone animal that didn't prove. I think that's an absurd thing to offer as what I'm out are the lost clutches. Not only did I have the potential to make 09 Honeybees but I also missed any shot at multiple gene crosses with the new co-dom. It's not just the monetary loss but a real setback for the co-dom project. I don't feel a 2010 animal or two makes up for what was lost but I wanted to compromise and get this behind me.

On September 28th I responded to his email with a list of morphs that would work with what I have but I got no response. I sent another email October 5th and got this response on the 11th.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

Just got back from Tinley late last night. I'll be putting an inventory list together and also updating the website. I'll have both done by the end of the week and then you can choose from there. Talk soon, Brian

Only Brian didn't send me a list at the end of the week nor contact me in any way. So again I send another email on October 20th asking about the inventory. And here's the response I got on October 22nd.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

So sorry, I have had a tough week.lol I am working on the last parts of te list today and should have it finished by tomorrow. Sorry for the delay! Talk soon, Brian

Want to take a wild guess as to what happened next?? That's right... no list, no email, no contact yet again. I sent Brian emails again on October 27th, November 2nd, November 9th and again got no response. So on September 12th I sent Brian another email.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

And now three more weeks have passed since you said you should have the list "finished by tomorrow". Not to mention no response to my last three emails, but I should be used to that by now. I'm absolutely disgusted with the way you have treated me in this situation and can't believe you run a business this way. If I sold someone a het that *didn't prove out* I would bend over backwards to make it right for them. You act like I'm bothering you. I don't know what else to say to you as nothing seems to make any difference and you never follow through with anything you say you're going to do anyway. - David

I think that about sums it up. July/August has long since passed but I still don't have anything. Brian has plenty of time to list snakes for sale, go to shows, write blogs, make videos... everything but stand behind an animal he sold. Any 'good guy' breeder would have made this right months ago. You've got how many thousands of ball pythons and you can't send me one of them to fix a huge error you made that cost me potentially thousands?? Pretty lame if you ask me.

Wait, hold on. So someone else bought this from Brian, and then you bought it from that person? So how is it Brian's responsibility anymore? Should we now be going after the original breeder after the snake has passed hands multiple times? I guess I should start writing to some of the big leopard gecko and cornsnake suppliers then, because their snakes are at my local petstores and are skinny as heck and lethargic!

Alex, there's a lot of difference in the condition of a snake and it's genetics. The genes cannot change no matter who owns it, or what it's fed.

The OP was sold a snake that appears to NOT have the genetics it was supposed to have and that has set his breeding program back considerably. Since it's only been 3 cluches there is some outside chance of just REALLY bad odds, but at this point in time, most people would say it's more likely that it does not carry the hypo gene.

BHB really should make it right in some way, better than just the original purchase price, especially since you've kept in touch with him throughout the issues. I hope he makes it right for you, I've only heard good things about them.

Originally Posted by Alex G

Wait, hold on. So someone else bought this from Brian, and then you bought it from that person? So how is it Brian's responsibility anymore? Should we now be going after the original breeder after the snake has passed hands multiple times? I guess I should start writing to some of the big leopard gecko and cornsnake suppliers then, because their snakes are at my local petstores and are skinny as heck and lethargic!

I figured this would be brought up by someone coming to BHB's defense right away. Chris Huffman isn't a random guy unknown to BHB. They have done multiple business dealings together and if this was an issue Brian should have said so from the start. It wasn't an issue and that's why Brian said he would 'do something' to make this right.

sounds like chris ripped u off not brian. U didnt purchase the snake from brian so he doesnt owe u or cliff diddly.

David - how much did YOU pay for the animal in question, and did it come with genetic photograpic paperwork to match the animal to the het guarantee?

How much do you want Brian to compensate you for?

Originally Posted by rabernet

Did it come with genetic photograpic paperwork to match the animal to the het guarantee?

This is the question I have.

For those who say Brian doesnt have to make this right, why doesnt he if the paperwork says the snake is het? Does the het "guarantee" only guarantee the first person to buy directly from a breeder, when does the guarantee expire if you have paperwork?

Originally Posted by Chrisw

This is the question I have.

For those who say Brian doesnt have to make this right, why doesnt he if the paperwork says the snake is het? Does the het "guarantee" only guarantee the first person to buy directly from a breeder, when does the guarantee expire if you have paperwork?

Brian has to make it right , but to the original buyer, if it came with a pic id and guarantee that may be a different story.

Originally Posted by ozz465

Brian has to make it right , but to the original buyer, if it came with a pic id and guarantee that may be a different story.

I have a problem with this and I agree with Chris.

Unless stated in a seller's TOS, if an animal switches hands before being proven, that genetic guarantee should still be in place. Now, I do not know about the paper work obtained with this animal, if any at all, and the whole situation is a bit of a mess, but a bad het. is a bad het. regardless of how someone ended up with it.

I was not aware that gurantees of genetics applied only to the original buyer. That just seems absurd to me.

If you produce an animal and claiming it as something, it better be that.

Originally Posted by ShadowAceD

I was not aware that gurantees of genetics applied only to the original buyer. That just seems absurd to me.

If you produce an animal and claiming it as something, it better be that.

And if an animal changes hands three times...four times....ten times...is the original breeder responsible to make some huge "compensation" to each of those prior owners for all possible "lost opportunities"? Equally absurd to me.

This debate will likely derail the thread and should probably be spun off into the general business discussion forum.