This is Really a Shame!

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

I don't recall an exact number..but probably quite a few. I don't insist when I sell my bps that they must be taken care of the way I specify, but I realllllly don't think aquariums are a good first choice for housing for beginners.

I recall how stressed I always was trying to keep the humidity and heat in the proper ranges; and I see so many posts calling for help because the bps aren't shedding properly or they are retaining sheds on a regular basis. Then people have to buy one UTH for one side and then find that they need to spend more money to buy another in the winter for the cool side because the temps are getting so low, and sometimes that's not enough so they also have to purchase a CHE and then from there we have found that some snakes get burned.

From my experience it's mostly the younger set that don't have their own income yet. It's simpler to suggest that they use something that's easy to maintain and heat. As they get more experienced of course they will do as they like, but hopefully by then they will have managed to learn enough to know the basics..from there they can fly and do whatever they please.

I hope I explained this ok.

Not much anyone can say here now after this post..

Having read these threads, I certainly can understand most of the responses coming from both sides. Believe me, I see the parts of Deb's posts that are setting people off...but, I've also gotten to know Deb well enough that I know (some) of where she is coming from. I like Deb...but her posting style rubs some people the wrong way (then again, so does mine - maybe that's part of our connection, lol). Deb knows that, too - I pretty much beat it into her a long time ago - and my guess would be that that is why she sometimes goes back and edits her posts.

As mentioned in my prior post, I've started this response several times. Part of the reason I haven't managed to finish is that I keep finding myself explaining things for Deb...and to her. (I've been trying to save you all from the worst of my rambling thought processes)
It really isn't so much that the threads have gotten way out of hand (though there has been some "unnecessary roughness"); but I think that both sides have missed some points in their efforts to make others, and that there is enough personal bias involved that the parties won't easily get past that to clear things up.
Based upon conversations I've had with Deb, I think she has learned/realized more about the forcefeeding/pinky pump thing than she is stating here...but she seems to be in defensive mode, and not willing to give in to what she sees as bullying. I also think that she took her lumps for that episode last year, and that there isn't a whole lot of reason that she shouldn't be allowed to get past it. There is more to Deb than that video. (I know, the whole "she doesn't seem to get it" or "not admitting what she did wrong" thing is still HERE...but that, IMO, is more of a communication issue than anything else). The video WAS a bad idea, simply because it didn't show good technique and proper safety precautions...if she was trying to make something to educate people, (IMO) she should have held off on posting until she could offer one that showed a good example.

As far as the care sheet - I looked at that for the first time today. I don't think it is any worse than so many others that I have seen...better than many, not as good as some. (Deb - how many times have you told people that glass aquariums are not the best choices for BPs?)

This thread - at least the topic that started it - is difficult for me to comment on without going deeper than I want to...I'll just say that she was playing to the wrong audience.

Impressions can be tough to overcome (I'm talking about the impressions both sides here have formed about each other). Deb is pretty open about her experiences - some find that refreshing, some use it to find fault. Here (Fauna), she is confronted by people with different backgrounds (in the hobby) and more experience. Obviously, it hasn't always gone well. I can say from personal interaction with her, though, that she WANTS to learn, and is not afraid to take her lumps in the process...I've given her a few, and she keeps coming back, lol. She's not always easy to get through to (stubborn + woman logic ), but she genuinely cares about the animals (not just hers) and the hobby.

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind - I don't care if you dislike Deb, or if she dislikes you - which now makes me wonder why I felt so compelled to post
I'm going back to bed, maybe it will make sense to me later

QOUTE BUTTON John LOL

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

I don't recall an exact number..but probably quite a few. I don't insist when I sell my bps that they must be taken care of the way I specify, but I realllllly don't think aquariums are a good first choice for housing for beginners.

I recall how stressed I always was trying to keep the humidity and heat in the proper ranges; and I see so many posts calling for help because the bps aren't shedding properly or they are retaining sheds on a regular basis. Then people have to buy one UTH for one side and then find that they need to spend more money to buy another in the winter for the cool side because the temps are getting so low, and sometimes that's not enough so they also have to purchase a CHE and then from there we have found that some snakes get burned.

From my experience it's mostly the younger set that don't have their own income yet. It's simpler to suggest that they use something that's easy to maintain and heat. As they get more experienced of course they will do as they like, but hopefully by then they will have managed to learn enough to know the basics..from there they can fly and do whatever they please.

I hope I explained this ok.

addenum: I don't think I do that anymore do I, Harald? I just try to make suggestions on whatever housing they chose (IF THEY ASK) to ensure that the BP has as little stress as possible. However, my own personal opinion is I wouldn't suggest them. I haven't gotten around to updating the website to include everything else that I want to say. I am still cleanin up Photobucket and learning how to watermark pictures.

Thanks again for teaching me how to do that, Harald.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

addenum

Nope!! No addendums allowed. P.S. or P.S.S or Oh Yeah or Damn, I almost forgot, are all perfectly acceptable.

But absolutely positively unequivocally under no circumstances what so ever are addendums allowed.

Thank you for you support.

This message paid for by the "Anti Addendum League".

Originally Posted by jasballs

Not much anyone can say here now after this post..

Why is that, John? I wasn't trying to shut anything down (except maybe some of the nastier comments/name calling). I even stated that it was my personal view - so it wouldn't be considered a moderator statement - in my previous post.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

addenum: I don't think I do that anymore do I, Harald? I just try to make suggestions on whatever housing they chose (IF THEY ASK) to ensure that the BP has as little stress as possible. However, my own personal opinion is I wouldn't suggest them. I haven't gotten around to updating the website to include everything else that I want to say. I am still cleanin up Photobucket and learning how to watermark pictures.

Thanks again for teaching me how to do that, Harald.

I only mentioned it because under the heading THINGS THAT YOU WILL NEED, the first item listed is a glass tank. Kinda struck me funny.

The issue I took with this thread was originally based on the video ordeal and then calling someone out and with a quick scan of that person's website recommending a very similar set up ..... screams hypocrisy to me.

I've read enough posts from Deb on this site and at least one other to have formed my own opinion of her. Then I talk to folks , admittedly not many , that have met her in person and they tell me how different she is online compared to in real life , in their opinion. If thats true or not I don't know nor do I have intention to find out.

I've seen her complain about words being put in her mouth and folks more or less butting into business but she'll jump right up and do the same to anyone else. I've already seen the race card pulled once and if folks don't agree then either we can't read or we're stuck in the mob mentality.

Going by the way she has handled herself here ( Fauna in general ) I see a person that has great potential for being two faced.

Its not our fault if she can't get what she wants to say in a post. Taking shots at our ability to read or intelligence because of that is lame.

As far as the Care Sheet goes , I've seen worse & better , thats why I made an issue of it. Kinda hard to call anyone out when your Is aren't dotted and your Ts aren't crossed. Its even worse to call someone else's experience into question when the advice and/or recommendations you have on a care sheet you authored is questionable at best.

I've gotten rough and can get rough. I say whats on my mind but I own what I say. It doesn't matter who it is , if its wrong .... well its just wrong and I don't mind pointing it out. With that said , there has never been an issue on this forum or any other where I haven't stood up and admitted I was wrong when it was pointed out. I expect no less from anyone else.

After the way she handled herself here , I wouldn't bother taking her word for much.

But then again I'm liar , an exaggerator , and I troll forums for opportunities towards personal attacks on others to try impress folks ,even if I use the info they posted to make a point, so what do I know.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

I only mentioned it because under the heading THINGS THAT YOU WILL NEED, the first item listed is a glass tank. Kinda struck me funny.

I didn't get it. I haven't looked at the caresheet (for adjustments and revisions) since I put it up there.

to tell the truth...I had forgotten what I said there...I had started writing caresheets when I first got my bps (I think a lot of newbies do that); I had tanks at that time. I hadn't posted it anywhere though. Then when I started down this business path, I posted what I had on my computer (I will proof read and make adjustments when I find time)


But I really don't think it's necessary that my site has to mirror what I WANT a bp to be in. A lot of people have advice on their forums that they don't necessarily agree with, but it is the "accepted" way of doing things. It was the accepted way when I created that sheet...Even Ron has caresheets on his forum that he doesn't necessarily subscribe to now. But it's what people WANT to use. So you make sure they have what's necessary.

I do also have on my site..all the other items that I believe are necessary, if one goes that aquarium route. the point wasn't actually the TANK or Tub usage.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

But I really don't think it's necessary that my site has to mirror what I WANT a bp to be in. A lot of people have advice on their forums that they don't necessarily agree with, but it is the "accepted" way of doing things. It was the accepted way when I created that sheet...Even Ron has caresheets on his forum that he doesn't necessarily subscribe to now. But it's what people WANT to use. So you make sure they have what's necessary.

I do also have on my site..all the other items that I believe are necessary, if one goes that aquarium route. the point wasn't actually the TANK or Tub usage.

This argument is without merit and really strikes me as merely a defense for the sake of justification of your words.
Opinions posted on someone's forum that the owner of the forum doesn't agree with is completely different from information published by the author on their own private site. A forum is by nature a vehicle of interaction and free speech to a greater or lesser extent, and of course when you invite the general public to participate in discussions, there will be things that the forum owner doesn't agree with.
Posting informational articles on one's personal website is entirely different. I can't imagine myself trying to defend publishing an article I didn't agree with on the basis that it's what people want to hear. The simple act of authoring a care sheet has the inherent implication that you endorse the methods you promote on the sheet, otherwise you shouldn't want your name attributed to it.
Anyone's personal site is their site, so anything they chose to post as care information absolutely should be how they would want an animal kept. Whether it's right or wrong in the opinion of the rest of the hobby, it should be right in the eyes of the author until such a time as they are convinced otherwise, then it should be changed.

A lot of people have advice on their forums that they don't necessarily agree with, but it is the "accepted" way of doing things. It was the accepted way when I created that sheet...

If something is wrong it's still wrong whether it's the "accepted way" or not. Unless you wrote that care sheet sometime in the 1980s, aquariums were not the "accepted way" of housing snakes by anyone with any experience despite their continued common use by neophytes.

I had started writing caresheets when I first got my bps (I think a lot of newbies do that)

I think the flaw here is blatantly obvious. I don't know whether a lot of newbies do that or not, but anyone with such limited experience in an area who presumes to be capable of offering advice in any form is foolish.
I bought some leopard tortoises a short while ago, but I'm smart enough to know I'm in no position to be offering advice on the tortoise forum let alone to be publishing a care sheet based on my extremely limited experience.

I'm not condemning you for having outdated and ill conceived information on your website. A lot of people make poor judgments attributed to enthusiasm.
Just don't sit there and try to defend it as being acceptable when you, by your own admission, no longer agree with it. Simply take it down or change it to something you do agree with instead of trying to justify it in attempt to avoid further criticism of your statements.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

Excellent post, Seamus - and very much to the point.

Having read these threads, I certainly can understand most of the responses coming from both sides. Believe me, I see the parts of Deb's posts that are setting people off...but, I've also gotten to know Deb well enough that I know (some) of where she is coming from. I like Deb...but her posting style rubs some people the wrong way (then again, so does mine - maybe that's part of our connection, lol). Deb knows that, too - I pretty much beat it into her a long time ago - and my guess would be that that is why she sometimes goes back and edits her posts.

As mentioned in my prior post, I've started this response several times. Part of the reason I haven't managed to finish is that I keep finding myself explaining things for Deb...and to her. (I've been trying to save you all from the worst of my rambling thought processes)
It really isn't so much that the threads have gotten way out of hand (though there has been some "unnecessary roughness"); but I think that both sides have missed some points in their efforts to make others, and that there is enough personal bias involved that the parties won't easily get past that to clear things up.
Based upon conversations I've had with Deb, I think she has learned/realized more about the forcefeeding/pinky pump thing than she is stating here...but she seems to be in defensive mode, and not willing to give in to what she sees as bullying. I also think that she took her lumps for that episode last year, and that there isn't a whole lot of reason that she shouldn't be allowed to get past it. There is more to Deb than that video. (I know, the whole "she doesn't seem to get it" or "not admitting what she did wrong" thing is still HERE...but that, IMO, is more of a communication issue than anything else). The video WAS a bad idea, simply because it didn't show good technique and proper safety precautions...if she was trying to make something to educate people, (IMO) she should have held off on posting until she could offer one that showed a good example.

As far as the care sheet - I looked at that for the first time today. I don't think it is any worse than so many others that I have seen...better than many, not as good as some. (Deb - how many times have you told people that glass aquariums are not the best choices for BPs?)

This thread - at least the topic that started it - is difficult for me to comment on without going deeper than I want to...I'll just say that she was playing to the wrong audience.

Impressions can be tough to overcome (I'm talking about the impressions both sides here have formed about each other). Deb is pretty open about her experiences - some find that refreshing, some use it to find fault. Here (Fauna), she is confronted by people with different backgrounds (in the hobby) and more experience. Obviously, it hasn't always gone well. I can say from personal interaction with her, though, that she WANTS to learn, and is not afraid to take her lumps in the process...I've given her a few, and she keeps coming back, lol. She's not always easy to get through to (stubborn + woman logic ), but she genuinely cares about the animals (not just hers) and the hobby.

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind - I don't care if you dislike Deb, or if she dislikes you - which now makes me wonder why I felt so compelled to post
I'm going back to bed, maybe it will make sense to me later

I want to thank you for expressing what I have been feeling! As much as Bryon and I are a couple, we both have our own opinions of others and we are independent of each other.

We have had the conversation of this thread and the other one, the items that I high lighted are things that struck me the most.

Being a new person to the hobby is not easy around here. When I joined fauna it took me almost a year to post (I don't take rejection well and tend to personalize it) And my spelling....back in those days I sat with a dictionary in my lap over fear of getting hit on the head with it.

Deb, just keep loving your animals and this hobby, we need new enthusiastic people to remind me that at one time, I was new too and made more than my share of mistakes.