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Board of Inquiry®This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry.
On the 5th of April Brandon Griffey sent me a PM asking about a 2011 Mystic Potion I had for sale. I had listed that I’d take orange dream combos for the potion and he asked what else I’d be interested in. I had mentioned specials and he provided his phone # and asked that I call him. He offered me a Cinnamon Special, after some talk we agreed on the Cinnamon Special as well as an Enchi Pastel produced from his business partner Thomas Raspoptsis. Brandon had asked that I ship first as that’s normally how he does trades. After talking with him on the phone we chatted a little on Facebook. I asked him if he could ship first since he was the one who offered me the trade and also because he didn’t have any references on fauna. We agreed he would ship on the 9th and I’d ship on the 10th after I received his animals. On the morning of the 6th Brandon called and asked if we can ship delta dash. We agreed to ship at the same time that evening. There were no shipping issues with all animals arriving in good health.
On the 18th I got a facebook message and phone call from Brandon stating the Mystic Potion had died the previous day. During the phone call Brandon had asked me several times what we’re going to do about the death. Brandon said the body was taken to a vet for a necropsy and the vet found ulcers in the stomach. Yet cause of death wasn’t determined and biopsy samples were sent to a pathology center. The necropsy was also video taped by Thomas who had possession of the snake and had taken the body to the vet. It came as a bit of a shock to me to say the least and I honestly didn’t know what to tell Brandon. After Brandon asking what we’re going to do about the death several times I stated I think it’d be best if we waited for results from the biopsy.
Brandon sent me the videos of the necropsy and 2 photos of the dead potion that evening. He called the following morning but I was on a 5pm-5am shift and was sleeping @ 11am when he had called. I saw the videos after waking up and e-mailed Brandon letting him know. In the video Tom asked if the potion had anything digested in his stomach. When the Vet stated the stomach was empty and that the last meal was likely at least 2 weeks ago Tom made a comment about the snake not being fed while it was in their possession it’d likely not eaten in sometime. I provided Brandon the March feeding dates since it was brought up in the video. The snake had its last meal 12 days prior to being shipped. Brandon replied with the vets contact information and stated I can call the vet if I have any questions. I asked if the results came in and he replied that they haven’t yet and they were concerned the snake had died of RI since the vet examination determined it didn’t have RI, they were ok with receiving their snakes back. I replied for them to let me know when the results are in, once again. He then replied saying he would let me know when the result are in and asked if I can ship delta dash.
On the 20th Brandon sent me a message on facebook asking if I got his last e-mail. I said I had and that I was waiting for the results from biopsies. On the 1st of May Brandon e-mail me saying the results were back and he’d let me know once they’ve talked with the Vet. He then replied a couple hours later saying it had salmonella poisoning. Afterwards the pathology report was e-mailed and after I reviewed it I talked with the vet. The vet stated the ulcers the snake had were likely caused by stress. I had asked about the mention of salmonella in the comment section of the report and how in the reptile community salmonella is generally stated that salmonella naturally occurs in reptiles. He simply stated due to the ulcers the bacteria was able to enter into deeper tissue.
After speaking with the vet I sent an e-mail to Brandon stating I’ve read the report and spoke with the vet. As well as explaining to him my view of the situation and that I don’t see myself at fault for the cause of the death and that I’m not returning the snakes. Brandon replied saying that wasn’t the agreement and made threats if I don’t return the snakes. He later replied stating he doesn’t have salmonella and it must have come from my turtles. I replied saying all reptiles can carry salmonella. I had not heard from Brandon since our last e-mails were exchanged but found a post from him on facebook making yet more threats towards me. He also fabricated the lie that the snake had been fed prior to shipping and the likely cause of death. Which I find very interesting after they sent me a video of a vet saying it had an empty stomach and Tom insisting the snake was off feed.
The animal was always under the same care and received no change to have caused the ulcers. It was only lightly bred having only 3 females this season and had only started the breeding season in February. Of my entire collection it was the only ball python that never went off feed during the winter/breeding season. It had been hands down my most consistent feeding 2011 and fed weekly without hesitation; it got larger than all but one other 2011 and was from my last clutch of the season.
As unfortunate as the situation is I can only account for the care I provided the animal while I owned it. The only thing I’m aware of is the animal was placed with females from day one of being at Tom’s house and saw numerous females till the last night of his life when he was finally put into a tub alone and found dead the following morning. Tom had told me the day following its death that he was concerned for his collection as it had been placed with those females which had since seen other males and those males have also been with yet more females. Yet the very next day after that phone call Brandon was requesting the snakes be shipped back to them since the potion didn’t have RI as determined by the necropsy that was done before they called me. No agreement was ever made or even mentioned prior to the trade of a guarantee beyond live arrival. Prior to writing this post I checked every website sponsor of the BP classified and on fauna and of the 15 breeders website listed only 2 list a guarantee beyond live arrival during shipping. So my decision I’d expect to not be the exception.
On the 5th of April Brandon Griffey sent me a PM asking about a 2011 Mystic Potion I had for sale. I had listed that I’d take orange dream combos for the potion and he asked what else I’d be interested in. I had mentioned specials and he provided his phone # and asked that I call him. He offered me a Cinnamon Special, after some talk we agreed on the Cinnamon Special as well as an Enchi Pastel produced from his business partner Thomas Raspoptsis. Brandon had asked that I ship first as that’s normally how he does trades. After talking with him on the phone we chatted a little on Facebook. I asked him if he could ship first since he was the one who offered me the trade and also because he didn’t have any references on fauna. We agreed he would ship on the 9th and I’d ship on the 10th after I received his animals. On the morning of the 6th Brandon called and asked if we can ship delta dash. We agreed to ship at the same time that evening. There were no shipping issues with all animals arriving in good health.
On the 18th I got a facebook message and phone call from Brandon stating the Mystic Potion had died the previous day. During the phone call Brandon had asked me several times what we’re going to do about the death. Brandon said the body was taken to a vet for a necropsy and the vet found ulcers in the stomach. Yet cause of death wasn’t determined and biopsy samples were sent to a pathology center. The necropsy was also video taped by Thomas who had possession of the snake and had taken the body to the vet. It came as a bit of a shock to me to say the least and I honestly didn’t know what to tell Brandon. After Brandon asking what we’re going to do about the death several times I stated I think it’d be best if we waited for results from the biopsy.
Brandon sent me the videos of the necropsy and 2 photos of the dead potion that evening. He called the following morning but I was on a 5pm-5am shift and was sleeping @ 11am when he had called. I saw the videos after waking up and e-mailed Brandon letting him know. In the video Tom asked if the potion had anything digested in his stomach. When the Vet stated the stomach was empty and that the last meal was likely at least 2 weeks ago Tom made a comment about the snake not being fed while it was in their possession it’d likely not eaten in sometime. I provided Brandon the March feeding dates since it was brought up in the video. The snake had its last meal 12 days prior to being shipped. Brandon replied with the vets contact information and stated I can call the vet if I have any questions. I asked if the results came in and he replied that they haven’t yet and they were concerned the snake had died of RI since the vet examination determined it didn’t have RI, they were ok with receiving their snakes back. I replied for them to let me know when the results are in, once again. He then replied saying he would let me know when the result are in and asked if I can ship delta dash.
On the 20th Brandon sent me a message on facebook asking if I got his last e-mail. I said I had and that I was waiting for the results from biopsies. On the 1st of May Brandon e-mail me saying the results were back and he’d let me know once they’ve talked with the Vet. He then replied a couple hours later saying it had salmonella poisoning. Afterwards the pathology report was e-mailed and after I reviewed it I talked with the vet. The vet stated the ulcers the snake had were likely caused by stress. I had asked about the mention of salmonella in the comment section of the report and how in the reptile community salmonella is generally stated that salmonella naturally occurs in reptiles. He simply stated due to the ulcers the bacteria was able to enter into deeper tissue.
After speaking with the vet I sent an e-mail to Brandon stating I’ve read the report and spoke with the vet. As well as explaining to him my view of the situation and that I don’t see myself at fault for the cause of the death and that I’m not returning the snakes. Brandon replied saying that wasn’t the agreement and made threats if I don’t return the snakes. He later replied stating he doesn’t have salmonella and it must have come from my turtles. I replied saying all reptiles can carry salmonella. I had not heard from Brandon since our last e-mails were exchanged but found a post from him on facebook making yet more threats towards me. He also fabricated the lie that the snake had been fed prior to shipping and the likely cause of death. Which I find very interesting after they sent me a video of a vet saying it had an empty stomach and Tom insisting the snake was off feed.
The animal was always under the same care and received no change to have caused the ulcers. It was only lightly bred having only 3 females this season and had only started the breeding season in February. Of my entire collection it was the only ball python that never went off feed during the winter/breeding season. It had been hands down my most consistent feeding 2011 and fed weekly without hesitation; it got larger than all but one other 2011 and was from my last clutch of the season.
As unfortunate as the situation is I can only account for the care I provided the animal while I owned it. The only thing I’m aware of is the animal was placed with females from day one of being at Tom’s house and saw numerous females till the last night of his life when he was finally put into a tub alone and found dead the following morning. Tom had told me the day following its death that he was concerned for his collection as it had been placed with those females which had since seen other males and those males have also been with yet more females. Yet the very next day after that phone call Brandon was requesting the snakes be shipped back to them since the potion didn’t have RI as determined by the necropsy that was done before they called me. No agreement was ever made or even mentioned prior to the trade of a guarantee beyond live arrival. Prior to writing this post I checked every website sponsor of the BP classified and on fauna and of the 15 breeders website listed only 2 list a guarantee beyond live arrival during shipping. So my decision I’d expect to not be the exception.
[youtube]On the 5th of April Brandon Griffey sent me a PM asking about a 2011 Mystic Potion I had for sale. I had listed that I’d take orange dream combos for the potion and he asked what else I’d be interested in. I had mentioned specials and he provided his phone # and asked that I call him. He offered me a Cinnamon Special, after some talk we agreed on the Cinnamon Special as well as an Enchi Pastel produced from his business partner Thomas Raspoptsis. Brandon had asked that I ship first as that’s normally how he does trades. After talking with him on the phone we chatted a little on Facebook. I asked him if he could ship first since he was the one who offered me the trade and also because he didn’t have any references on fauna. We agreed he would ship on the 9th and I’d ship on the 10th after I received his animals. On the morning of the 6th Brandon called and asked if we can ship delta dash. We agreed to ship at the same time that evening. There were no shipping issues with all animals arriving in good health.
On the 18th I got a facebook message and phone call from Brandon stating the Mystic Potion had died the previous day. During the phone call Brandon had asked me several times what we’re going to do about the death. Brandon said the body was taken to a vet for a necropsy and the vet found ulcers in the stomach. Yet cause of death wasn’t determined and biopsy samples were sent to a pathology center. The necropsy was also video taped by Thomas who had possession of the snake and had taken the body to the vet. It came as a bit of a shock to me to say the least and I honestly didn’t know what to tell Brandon. After Brandon asking what we’re going to do about the death several times I stated I think it’d be best if we waited for results from the biopsy.
Brandon sent me the videos of the necropsy and 2 photos of the dead potion that evening. He called the following morning but I was on a 5pm-5am shift and was sleeping @ 11am when he had called. I saw the videos after waking up and e-mailed Brandon letting him know. In the video Tom asked if the potion had anything digested in his stomach. When the Vet stated the stomach was empty and that the last meal was likely at least 2 weeks ago Tom made a comment about the snake not being fed while it was in their possession it’d likely not eaten in sometime. I provided Brandon the March feeding dates since it was brought up in the video. The snake had its last meal 12 days prior to being shipped. Brandon replied with the vets contact information and stated I can call the vet if I have any questions. I asked if the results came in and he replied that they haven’t yet and they were concerned the snake had died of RI since the vet examination determined it didn’t have RI, they were ok with receiving their snakes back. I replied for them to let me know when the results are in, once again. He then replied saying he would let me know when the result are in and asked if I can ship delta dash.
On the 20th Brandon sent me a message on facebook asking if I got his last e-mail. I said I had and that I was waiting for the results from biopsies. On the 1st of May Brandon e-mail me saying the results were back and he’d let me know once they’ve talked with the Vet. He then replied a couple hours later saying it had salmonella poisoning. Afterwards the pathology report was e-mailed and after I reviewed it I talked with the vet. The vet stated the ulcers the snake had were likely caused by stress. I had asked about the mention of salmonella in the comment section of the report and how in the reptile community salmonella is generally stated that salmonella naturally occurs in reptiles. He simply stated due to the ulcers the bacteria was able to enter into deeper tissue.
After speaking with the vet I sent an e-mail to Brandon stating I’ve read the report and spoke with the vet. As well as explaining to him my view of the situation and that I don’t see myself at fault for the cause of the death and that I’m not returning the snakes. Brandon replied saying that wasn’t the agreement and made threats if I don’t return the snakes. He later replied stating he doesn’t have salmonella and it must have come from my turtles. I replied saying all reptiles can carry salmonella. I had not heard from Brandon since our last e-mails were exchanged but found a post from him on facebook making yet more threats towards me. He also fabricated the lie that the snake had been fed prior to shipping and the likely cause of death. Which I find very interesting after they sent me a video of a vet saying it had an empty stomach and Tom insisting the snake was off feed.
The animal was always under the same care and received no change to have caused the ulcers. It was only lightly bred having only 3 females this season and had only started the breeding season in February. Of my entire collection it was the only ball python that never went off feed during the winter/breeding season. It had been hands down my most consistent feeding 2011 and fed weekly without hesitation; it got larger than all but one other 2011 and was from my last clutch of the season.
As unfortunate as the situation is I can only account for the care I provided the animal while I owned it. The only thing I’m aware of is the animal was placed with females from day one of being at Tom’s house and saw numerous females till the last night of his life when he was finally put into a tub alone and found dead the following morning. Tom had told me the day following its death that he was concerned for his collection as it had been placed with those females which had since seen other males and those males have also been with yet more females. Yet the very next day after that phone call Brandon was requesting the snakes be shipped back to them since the potion didn’t have RI as determined by the necropsy that was done before they called me. No agreement was ever made or even mentioned prior to the trade of a guarantee beyond live arrival. Prior to writing this post I checked every website sponsor of the BP classified and on fauna and of the 15 breeders website listed only 2 list a guarantee beyond live arrival during shipping. So my decision I’d expect to not be the exception.
All reptiles can carry samonella. Not only turtles, thats why its always recommanded to wash your hands after handling reptiles.
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
I look on your site and you breed turtles and Handel them witch is very well know to carry salmonella poison. I don't have turtles so the salmonella didn't come from me it clearly came from you.
On May 2, 2012 7:11 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
I agreed to wait on results to determine if it there were findings that determine there was an underlying issue prior to you receiving the potion. Like the vet said its not known known why it had ulcers he didn't say the bacteria was defiant cause of death either. I don't see how I can be found at fault in this matter.
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
That ain't what we agreed on. When I talk to you the 2 Weeks ago. If shipping stress killed then then how come the snakes i shipped you ain't dead then? They are babies and we didn't ship overnight it was in a few hours. You need to do what's right I did my part. if I sent you a snake and died less then two weeks I would replaced it. I don't want to go public with this and tell people you have sick snakes but i'm going to have to if you don't make a decision by 10 am tomorrow to ship out my snakes like you said you would when I first told you what happened after the results came in and we agreed to wait. And you wouldn't return any my calls that's not good either. It's the princible not about a warranty we not dealing electronics.
On May 2, 2012 7:11 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
I just spoke with him.
He told me the cause of the ulcers is unknown. Yet likely caused from stress and it allowed the salmonella into deeper tissue.
Based on what I've seen in the report and after speaking to your vet, I don't see how I'm at fault. Stress could have been caused from shipping and then from being placed with numerous females for the entire length of time you had it. You accepted him and stated he arrived safety the night of the shipment; that he was warm, and was a good looking potion. As we agreed to trade with no mentioned warranty for either your animals or mine, we were both equally at risk. The trade was finalized at that point, and remains final based on your vets report. As per the vet it is likely caused by stress. The potion received the same care for its entire life without a single issue prior to shipment. I understand your frustration, yet the fact remains the animal died in your care at no fault to me.
I'd prefer to continue any correspondence by email.
Thanks
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
Did you call the vet?
On May 1, 2012 10:37 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hey,
I'd like to speak with the Vet tomorrow. This paper is kinda hard to follow and doesn't state cause of death from what I can see. I'll e-mail you after.
Thanks
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
What's your contact number?
On May 1, 2012 6:39 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't have any PMs from him on fauna if that's what you mean? If you don't mind send him a text and ask him to send a closer photo of the paper to my e-mail address.
Thanks
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
Check your email on fauna Tom got it. I'm at work he can get it for you call him
On May 1, 2012 6:23 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
I can't really read that, is it possible for you to scan it? Or can you try to get a closer shot of it?
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
It had salmonella poison.
On May 1, 2012 1:52 PM, "Brandon Griffey" <bonk2k2009@gmail.com> wrote:
The results came in today the doctor will be in at 3pm. What's your phone number? I Miss place it. Why are you selling your hold backs? Just asking
On Apr 19, 2012 1:47 PM, "Brandon Griffey" <bonk2k2009@gmail.com> wrote:
I sure will and you have the doctor number now if you have any concern. Would you ship delta dash?
On Apr 19, 2012 1:45 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
I see, please let me know once the results are in so we know if there is any findings.
Thanks
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
Not yet it was sent out to another lab it takes a week or two but I was more worried about the snake having RI and it doesn't. We feel ok now about receiving the snakes back from you.
On Apr 19, 2012 1:23 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
So the results came back?
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Auto 2
Ok
the vet clinic is called cedar creek veterinary hospital the number is
517-655-4906. The doctors name. Is dr.wayne Beasly you can call there and ask for him if you have any questions or for the results. You can shipped the snakes back to us
On Apr 19, 2012 12:44 PM, "Xavier Springer" <xavier.springer@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hey,
I'm working 5pm - 5am this week and just got up @ noon. My wife said I missed your call while I was sleeping. Just saw the vids, thanks for sending them. Let me know when the biopsy results come back.
Oh you guys were talking about it feeding, his last feeding dates were 3-08, 3-15, 3-20, & 3-24.
Thanks
Xavier
From: Brandon Griffey <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
To: Xavier Saci Springer <xavier.springer@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 9:44 AM
Subject: Fwd: Auto 2
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Tom" <thomasraspoptsis@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Apr 18, 2012 9:16 PM
Subject: Auto 2
To: <bonk2k2009@gmail.com>
that is a few dates where is the card that will show more than just a smal window in time "and 4 meals in just over 2 weeks isnt alot?". As to trolling, I have every right as you. If you dont like my post dont repond
And the cause of death is what matters the most, next to a refund of some sort.
As to the keeping of Ball pythons I have been keeping them for almost 15 years, I might not be an expert but Im more than aware what is and isnt power feeding.
that is a few dates where is the card that will show more than just a smal window in time "and 4 meals in just over 2 weeks isnt alot?". As to trolling, I have every right as you. If you dont like my post dont repond
And the cause of death is what matters the most, next to a refund of some sort.
As to the keeping of Ball pythons I have been keeping them for almost 15 years, I might not be an expert but Im more than aware what is and isnt power feeding.
Those meals and the length of time between it's last meal and shipping show an erratic schedule at best. The rest of it's feeding schedule isn't relevant to the topic, as it can't remove culpability from the buyers.
Those meals and the length of time between it's last meal and shipping show an erratic schedule at best. The rest of it's feeding schedule isn't relevant to the topic, as it can't remove culpability from the buyers.
what its record card could/would show how fast it got up to size and as to how it ate during its breeding season with the seller, how far did Xavier push the potion to breed
what its record card could/would show how fast it got up to size and as to how it ate during its breeding season with the seller, how far did Xavier push the potion to breed
Again. It is irrelevant to the buyers culpability in the death, and has no bearing on determining whether on not they should be due the refund.
So what killed your snake everything dies from something nothing just dies for no reason
Vet suggested that it might have died of stress or just not getting used to the new environment.
Otherwise, she did a bunch of tests, including one where she told me she opened the snake up physically (i forget the word at the moment, im not feeling well), and nothing ... no disease or virus was found.
Everything was how it was supposed to be.
Rocky died within four days of being at my house, from opening the box to the morning where I rolled over to take a look at him and finding him in his quarentine tub.
You should always quarentine your snakes, you should always keep it quiet around them to get the acclimated, and you should never put a snake that you just received in with females. Wait at least a week.
Ive said this once before, and ill say it again.
If you are so concerned with the money that you are spending on ONE animal, then wouldnt you WANT to take all the precautions?
Regardless if the animal is technically healthy, you do not know this.
With a $1000 snake, wouldnt you WANT to put it in quarentine, get it as healthy as possible before breeding it?
And honestly, waiting until next breeding season isnt that much of a time wait as both your females and the male will be older, healthier, theyll have more time to gain weight and be healthier to get ready to do their business and lay eggs.
Again. It is irrelevant to the buyers culpability in the death, and has no bearing on determining whether on not they should be due the refund.
what it does show that the seller may not have taken the best care aswell ,and it could have been a contribting factor, well have to wait and see what the vet determins was the reason it died.
Brandon Griffey
Hybrid Mode
