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Old 01-28-2003, 05:50 AM   #81
BrianB
First, I'd like to say thanks to everyone who has posted their info on gout in this thread. It has been very informative.

Adam asks why some issues aren't being addressed. In the interest of doing so, I'll take a stab at a couple of thest. This is just an attempt to take an objective look at the questions, and provide feedback.

Quote:
I do mind hearing this breeder sold somebody else a 282 gram two year old ball.
I think in regards to this claim, there is a lack of evidence. At the moment, it stands as hearsay. If you could produce a receipt for this 282 gram animal, and any other evidence, that'd probably be a good idea.

Quote:
There is no blame, the animal is dead and weather it was caused by Kevin or myself doesn't matter to me.
I think this has been addressed because earlier comments indicated that there was some blame assignment going on, and that doesn't seem to have abated much.

Adam has stated that he feels that a 65/35 split of liability is in order, which would be manifest in a replacement of a het albino animal. So, yes, there is an issue of assigning blame, here.

Here's the problem with assinging blame: The animal may have died due to someone's care. It may have died just from plain bad luck. A seller HAS to limit his or her liability at some point, and that's usually laid out as a health gaurantee in the terms of the sale. The buyer is responsible for knowing the sales terms and agreeing to them. If I read the timeline right, the animal was not reported to NERD until five months after the sale? Or was it two months? Whichever it was, the only question of liability should be: Did the snake develop problems, and were those problems reported, within the time limit set by the terms of the sale?

I have no doubt that Adam would do as he was requesting NERD do, and replace the albino with a het, were the situation reversed. It does seem like a reasonable, and kind thing to do. I do not, however, think that NERD is in any way obligated to take this course of action, nor that it reflects poorly on them. It seems that a discount was offered by NERD, so they did offer to make ammends beyond the basic terms of the sale. Although that may not meet Adam's personal standards in this case, it does show integrity on the part of the seller, IMHO.


Quote:
I don't have an issue with Kevin as a person. I have an issue with the way he dealt with me on the phone.
This sounds like a personal issue. Nobody here has access to a reliable report of this phone conversation, so they cannot comment on it. The only commentary that's appropriate is how past conversations/transactions/problems were handled by Kevin or yourself, and they are largely irrelevant.

The identity of the person who posted with Kevin's signature is equally irrelevant. The fact is, whoever posted used NERD's login, and apparently had permission to act as Kevin's agent in making the post. Unless Kevin comes on here to refute that post, there's no reason to question the content.

Poor customer service is certainly noteworthy, but Adam has taken it so far beyond a siimple complaint of rudeness as to make any further comments in this area suspect. He's clearly been offended on a personal level. I'm not judging whether he's in the right or wrong in taking offense, only saying that this particular situation should not be held up as typical behavior for either party, since emotions seem to be running high.

On to the questions list. I know that quite a few of these were directed at Kevin/NERD, but I figured I'd take a crack at examining them.

1) Did Kevin write the post on the BOI?

It does not matter if the person posting did so as Kevin's agent in the matter. See above comments.

2) Why was your 2 year old snake only 282 Grams?

Hearsay. Show proof. See above comments.

3) Was this snake given water while on it's way to the show?

Was it given water on the way BACK from the show? This one goes two ways. Neither question can be answered conclusively here. As someone else pointed out, the likelihood that all parties cared for the animal to the best of their abilities seems very high.

4) You mention the great record keeping you maintain, would you be willing to tell us who else bought babies from that clutch?

Frankly, I'd be a might peeved if a dealer made my transactions with them public in such a manner. What's in his customers' collections is nobody's business except their own. It might be better to ask if he wouldn't mind having the customers who bought the rest of the clutch contact you or post here, though considering how confrontational and inflammatory your recent posts have been, I doubt he'd do so, and I wouldn't blame him.


5) How many meals was that baby fed before being sold?

I thought you already stated that he provided a feeding card, and that the feeding card showed just how few meals the animal had had in his care? Why don't YOU scan that bad boy in and post it here? Come to think of it, didn't your partner take a look at the feeding card before he laid down $2500 on the animal? If the feeding card shows a history of poor feeding, and if it was made available at the time of sale, then taking on a poor feeding animal was something the buyer could have avoided. Anyway, show us the card, and this question might be closer to getting answered.


6) We've established your excellent reputation, with that said, why did you choose to bring such a young baby to be sold at the show?

I did read the thread, but it was much earlier, and it is a long thread. I have one question: Are the two of you in agreement as to the age of the animal? If not, what proof of age does each side have? IIRC, it takes hatchling balls about three or four weeks before taking their first meal. You stated already (again, IIRC) that you had a feeding card showing the animal had been fed only once a month. So, how many feedings? Assuming the snake was a month or so old to get the first meal, and assuming that there was at least a second meal to establish the "once a month" trend, then the snake was at least two months old by that account, which isn't quite fresh out of the egg.

This last point, of the albino's age, seems to be the only major complaint of interest. The question of whether NERD sells well-established ball pythons or not is of interest.

Anyway, this has been an attempt to take a logical look at the situation, and offer up some ideas, so I hope you take it in the spirit intended, Adam, and I'm very sorry for the loss of the snake.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 06:07 AM   #82
BrianB
re: The feed card. I read back and it looks like the feed card referred to was the one for the two year old snake mentioned. In that case, the feed card would be a good thing to have scanned in regards to that issue.

Disregard my responses to questions 5 and 6. The question here is, why wasn't a feed card provided for the albino? Had the snake fed at that point? That seems to be a good question to ask.

Sorry about the confusion, that's what I get for trying to remember something from such a long thread at such a late hour.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 07:58 AM   #83
Rob @ RK Reptiles
Adam,

Unless the person that has the supposed 2 year old that weighed that little p[ost here there is no need to post any of the information about it. You have NO PROOF. To be honest, you have shown no proof of anything in this thread. As I have said before it is sad that the snake perished but there is no responsibility on Kevin or NERD's part. To answer the thread. The route you should go is no where. The animal died, it is not Kevin's fault, it can't be proven it is your fault, so it just happened. Just let it be done and move on with your other animals and buisness.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 11:21 AM   #84
Seamus Haley
Hey... finally someone I know personally and have purchased from although I doubt he realizes it...

I have to say, in terms of credibility both because of the position an individual enjoys as well as their general attitude, I'd have to side with Kevin if he says that there is no pattern of genetic problems and that the albino in question was well fed and hydrated.

I say this for a few reasons...
  • It's firsthand information, Kevin actually possessed the animal during the transit period, Adam is relying on second hand information from someone who has not yet posted themselves as to how the sale went.
  • I've been to Kevin's facility up in New Hampshire quite a few times, outside of Kevin running around making people hold tarantulas- the place is immaculate, the animals some of the best I have ever seen
  • Kevin didn't get where he is today by lying and he has a lot further to fall if he started now.
  • Adam's timeline was incomplete.
  • Adam's comments have shifted back and forth between "I just want to see if it's a genetic problem and warn people." to "I deserve a 35% refund." and back.
  • Adam's information on how the purchase occurred is far more subjective since he wasn't there and is relying on the information of another individual.
  • I have seen Kevin provide water for his animals in the show that's held in New Hampshire as well as the one Shawn runs down in Rhode Island, if he does it on short two-three hour trips, why wouldn't he do so at Daytona? Conjecture on my part I admit but it establishes pattern.
  • Adam has stated he has evidence which he has totally failed to provide... "I have receipts, I have a necropsy report" and so on but none of it has been shown to even exist much less prove anything.
  • I have never personally seen a skinny Ball Python anywhere on NERD's tables, up in new Hampshire or even so much as within ten feet of Kevin.

I also have to say that this quote...

Quote:
Kevin, I called you with good intentions and only to get some more info from you. People know you're a hothead and I would be happy to sight examples of this if you think that would help establish this.
Is hilarious, especially coming from Adam. Those who know or have even so much as met Kevin know what I mean by that, the thought of him as an angry hothead doesn't sit right with his every action, mannerism, attitude and even physical appearance (although he is a pretty big guy).

I wouldn't ever call someone "Beyond reproach" when it comes to being honest about a business transaction, because mistakes can happen but...

Kevin is relating firsthand information and has a very solid track record on the quality of his animals, the lengths he goes to for customer service and the manner in which he handles complaints (although he is usually a bit of a stickler with his agreed to policies, he can't be blamed for sticking to his contractual agreement)...

Adam is relating secondhand information given to him by someone who hasn't even posted for themselves, deliberately avoided giving the name of the animal's producer because he KNOWS that his accusations would be ludicrous, alluded to proof that doesn't seem to actually exist, or it would have been posted by now and doesn't exactly have a reputation for being a level headed and rational individual. Adam even went out of his way to downplay the reputation of the unnamed breeder by mentioning that they produced very few albinos this year which, true or not, is enormously misleading.

I don't think that, worded the way it was, this thread ever had the less aggressive intentions of educating the public or even in passively gathering information on the case histories of albino ball pythons, if it had, it wouldn't have even ended up in the GBD forum, it would have been in the ball python health forum and it simply would have asked for information about the condition and if anyone had experienced it before, he could have then e-mailed or PMed anyone who replied that they had a similar case occur to get the information about who bred it. Quiet, passive, honest. This thread was nothing more than Adam looking for a refund and trying to pressure the seller into giving him one.

One other thing... Adam, how old are you exactly? Because, if I recall the single phone conversation you and I had, you are quite young, in your early to mid twenties... yet on this thread you state that you had twenty three years of experience breeding and keeping herps... While it may technically qualify if you catch salamanders in your backyard at three years old, or your parents owned 'em... it doesn't count towards any quality experience you may have, I get the feeling the number is closer to seven or eight years of actual responsibility for the animals in your care but feel free to correct me with stories about breeding indigos when you were six.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 12:04 PM   #85
WebSlave
Just for the record...

Since some people are alluding to Adam's refusing to name the other party in this issue as being of nefarious design, I think it is time for me to make a comment here.

Adam called me on the phone about this issue before posting it, requesting my opinion on how to approach it publicly. It was MY opinion that it was far too premature to call someone to the mat with the evidence at hand at that point. My recommendation was to post a general request for supporting evidence of what Adam saw as the possibility of a genetic flaw in a group of animals. Although this original posting was not appropriate for the BOI because of it's non specific nature concerning the source of the animal(s), it was felt that there was a great likelihood that it could very quickly become a BOI issue. Adam's concern was that in any other forum it would not get the exposure and attention he felt it deserved. It was MY decision to allow it to be initially posted in the BOI.

So for those people assuming that the approach taken by Adam was inappropriate, you are judging from hindsight. When this issue was brought up, the approach used by Adam was considered by him and myself as the most REASONABLE manner in order to bring something like this up without naming names and perhaps unfairly calling someone's ethics into question.

I just think I needed to clear the air about this as the perceived intent of his thread is starting to drift off into an unpleasant direction.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 12:30 PM   #86
Seamus Haley
Quote:
When this issue was brought up, the approach used by Adam was considered by him and myself as the most REASONABLE manner in order to bring something like this up without naming names and perhaps unfairly calling someone's ethics into question.
But... can you honestly say that he maintained that reasonable "information gathering" attitude throughout the thread?

Heck, can you say he maintained a reasonable and appropriate attitude, that the two of you apparantly discussed for even the first three pages?

Or will you concede that it was quickly turned into a self serving diatribe about the fact he felt he was due some form of compensation that was not forthcoming?

Your suggestion or not... Webslave... his motives are a seperate and distinct issue.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 12:52 PM   #87
HerpVenue
Kevin - his reputation speaks for itself.

With that in mind.... If Adam can prove that a good number of ball pythons have died after being purchased from Nerd... Well then let the cards fall where they may.

What I would like to know is how Adam got the ball python. Was it being driven around in some truck for three days? It seems I either missed it...or it was purposely left out.

At first I saw this thread as info gathering. (it was being done right and I was impressed.
Then...it was also started putting confusion in my mind. ie the timeline of when it was born, bought, fed, shipped, etc (was this confusion done on purpose I do not know)
Then it went from...."I just want to gather info - to I just want 65% and back and forth and so on."

What happened in detail from the time it was bought? was the friend driving cross country?
Did he feed it or give it water? (there is about three days of "delivery" that is unaccounted for.
 
Old 01-28-2003, 12:55 PM   #88
evansnakes
Clarifications needed

In my very brief earlier post I made a comment about bloodline. I was not referring to NERD. One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind through this whole discussion however has eluded this topic. EVERY albino ball python that started the bloodlines in all US collections were origionaly imported or directly from animals that were. It is very early in the developement of this mutation in most cases, to see clearly any inherant genetic weakness' or tendencies towards health or physiological problems.

Comments made concerning hets purchased from the same line that are doing well are in truth, pretty much irrelevant. Hets would be outbred and tend to have much stronger genetic predisposition to normality than would an albino.

To David Jobes, I am not trying to be a jerk here, but feel that your long post was nearly a commerical endorsement and really has no place in this thread. I also find it funny that you left off your list breeders like Mark Bell/Reptile Industries who consistently outproduce nearly everyone that you listed on most mutations. Mark has produced more ghost and pastel babies than anyone the past couple seasons as well as producing carmels, pieds, albinos and hets as well as the first Pastel Ghost ball. That is just one example. Jamie Quick produces tons of albinos and hets each year. Pete Kahl certainly is someone worth mentioning. Three other I can think of produced large numbers of albinos this season. Give credit where credit is due. Some of the people you list are very small producers. BHB and RDR belong right up there behind Kevin as they produce hundreds of balls each season as well.

Evan Stahl
 
Old 01-28-2003, 02:37 PM   #89
napavalleysnakes
Adam - I've been reading this thread off and on, and figure I had to say this: There is no life-long guarantee on any animal.

Several times in the past I've sold what to me, are outwardly healthy animals. They were eating for me, gaining weight, no visible abnormalities, etc.
Animals I would stake my reputation on as I produced them myself, and had them in my possession from birth until they were sold.

Yet even with all my care, the care of the individual purchasing the animal, the animal still fails to make it to adulthood.

By the rules of nature, there are certain animals that just weren't meant to make it to maturity.

Which brings us to Kevin and the albino ball. I've checked out NERD's animals at several shows, and they really do keep on top of the care of their animals. When you have been a vendor at what seems like too many shows a year, you tend to notice who, and who doesn't, take care of their animals. My opinion of NERD is they do a great job !

So what reparations does this situation warrant ?
Well in my eyes NERD is not liable for the death of this animal.
I think they sold an animal that was outwardly healthy (thus it being purchased), and the animal survived long enough to satisfy their warranty.
With this being said, many dealers will go the extra mile to make it up to a customer. I know I do. There are several ways to make up a high-end casualty. You can either send them a new one (the easy solution, though not often done) or you can work out a deal for other animals with them at reduced pricing.

It seems Kevin was willing to go this route until he felt your questions had become accusations about his bloodline. Nobody who has worked their tail off in this hobby wants to hear someone state they may be selling defective animals.

My take-home message on this situation, well it really is too bad the animal did not thrive for you Adam, but the facts are I do not feel NERD is obligated to pay back (or make reparations for) a single cent.. Sometimes you just have to face up to losses in this hobby and move on. It may make you leery of dealing with a particular person (as this will be a purchase you'll certainly never forget), but it can also be a learning tool. Breeding reptiles is a challenging hobby, and that's why it is so fascinating to pursue..

Thanks, Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes
 
Old 01-28-2003, 02:51 PM   #90
Adam Block
Let

I must say this has been a very educating experiance for me. In my first post right from the start I said:

Quote:
My basic objective of this post is to find out if the situation I’m about to outline is an isolated occurrence or if it has happened to others as well. If in fact this is an isolated occurrence then I feel it should be handled in a totally different non-public manner, however if others have had the same thing or something similar happen then I feel it should be publicly addressed.
I spoke with Rich before hand just to make sure he wouldn't have an issue with this if it got to be a hot topic. I also told him what I thought I should to in an attempt to be sure I was going at it with a clear head.

I never said it was a genetic issue, I never said it wasn't. I never said it was an issue on Kevin's side or on mine. I did however feel that based on the information I had it was something that should be looked further into.

All of these posts are so far off the topic or point of this post that it's not worth putting any more time into.

I've heard many strories about Kevin, from mine to people buying $25,000 spiders from him with a promise he wouldn't lower the price on them only to end up doing so and blowing up on the person when he calls Kevin on it. To people calling asking to buy animals from him for him to say he doesn't have them and then the next day sell a pair to the guys partner. Now these are rumors and things I wanted to find out first hand from Kevin. In speaking with him I felt he talked to me in a manner that reflected the above actions could be possible.

With this information in mind I wanted to ask if anybody else had these troubles. The answer so far has been no making the first portion of the above quote the one that applies.

I've also seen that many people in here seem to know what Kevin is thinking and are speaking for or protecting him from answering the questions.

I know for fact why he won't come here and answer these questions but I don't have any issue keeping that between myself and Kevin.

His lack of responce to any further postings is all that I needed. I will gather the information I have and start a post based on that if I feel it is warrented and I think this one can and should be placed in the GBD area.

Thanks a lot for all of your posts and although 1 page should have been more then enough based on what I'd asked I'm sorry it's become a 10 page long event.

Adam Block
 

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