Jeff Barringer --Kingsnake.com hypocrisy

Jeff in your post above, #70 in this thread, you are painting yourself as a know-it-all, loudmouth, arrogant pinhead.

Have fun selling your fake intergrades now that you knocked yourself off the biggest single online market for selling snakes.

What is really laughable is that in your big fat bowling ball head you are still thinking of a way to get thru to everyone why they are all wrong and you are right.

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

Originally Posted by Jeff Schofield

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

WOW.....just WOW. The bolded part embodies why you are in this situation to begin with! Your OPINION about a subject is the right one and everyone else just doesn't know what they are talking about.



You seem to be continuing to


Oh well what can you do

Originally Posted by East_Coast

Jeff in your post above, #70 in this thread, you are painting yourself as a know-it-all, loudmouth, arrogant pinhead.

Have fun selling your fake intergrades now that you knocked yourself off the biggest single online market for selling snakes.

What is really laughable is that in your big fat bowling ball head you are still thinking of a way to get thru to everyone why they are all wrong and you are right.

Good luck. Let me know how it works out.

what are you doing here JOLLES aka "sweetpickle"? i thought you were banned from causing trouble. AH!!!hahahahahah-ha-ha,lolol!!!

Now-now, don't take just one sentence out of a well-thought-out posting. You need to include other vital information like his degrees and experience.
I bet my degrees can kick your degrees butt!

Quit with the personal attacks and name calling, please. If you cannot converse without doing so, I strongly suggest you find somewhere else to play.

Originally Posted by Jeff Schofield

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.

How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

Rich... I was typing up my post when you posted.. .and I dont think it fits your critera... but if it does... I apologize.

Originally Posted by Jeff Schofield

Its really funny how some people learn to read. They pick 1 line out of a well thought out post and harp on that 1 line as if it stands by itself. If I bring up a topic I would say I more than likely know more about it than 50% of the responders. I never said I knew more than anyone in particular, but fair to say with my degrees and experience I know more than average. Period. That said--your question:
SPECIES DONT INTERGRADE. The definition of species doesnt allow for it. A corn is species A, a yellow rat species B, a Eastern king species C1 and a Florida king species C2. Get it yet? There are SSP of kings, they intergrade in nature and in my snake room. A x B is a HYBRID, A x C is a HYBRID, C x C is a INTERGRADE. We are not talking about nature, we are far too many generations removed from nature for it to matter at all. The definitions remain free of such distinctions and have to be used and treated as such, right? If we each went by our own defintions nothing would ever get done! The terms as I have used them are how they are commonly used in the scientific community so we can distinguish things.

Which definition of species includes as part of the definition that species cannot intergrade? Please supply a reference from a substantial source (Reptiles Magazine is not a substantial source in this case). I'll challenge it with the lengthy definition out of Herpetology, An Introductory Biology of Amphibians and Reptiles; Academic Press, 2001 which does not include any such language..

Ed

Ed

Jeff,

It seems to me that you reacted out of irritation, frustration and anger. That hostility left the other Jeff backed into a corner with no action left, by your insistence.
I am not even dealing with the taxonomic discussion but rather your immediate and I feel seriously flawed view of your role as a customer.

Thinking that a company you pay to advertise with as working for you is seriously flawed.
I assure you that when advertising in the New York Post or other large newspapers, the editors and owners don't consider you upper echelon in the company.

KS doesn't work for ANYONE BUT KS. Your ability to post adds is a way for you to work for yourself and advertise to a large market, that's why you don't get a paycheck from KS. Also why you don't send paychecks to people who pay you for snakes, do you work for them since they are paying customers?

Obviously customer service is important. Making sure customers feel appreciated and taking time to answer questions or other issues helps maintain relationships. In this instance you obviously felt slighted, and unfairly targeted....but your approach and your perceived position were enough to grate on anyone and create tension. Creating tension does not allow for constructive dialogue.

I don't know you and I am not attacking you at all here Jeff. I have lived long enough to have had some life experience teach me that raising hackles and snapping off are not the best course of action. We have all done it, especially when we feel we feel we are "in the right". I post in response to this only to have you step back and look at the situation and your knee-jerk reaction, and see it accomplished nothing constructive, and hope you learn from it.

-Riley Campbell

Originally Posted by RidgeTop Reptiles

It's only a well thought out post if it gets your point across. Apparently your's is not well thought out.

It's been proven that corns and rats will breed in the wild. They are VERY closely related. Thus they are an 'intergrade' when they do. It happened in nature. However if you do the same pairing in captivity... they are a hybrid. That pairing was not the work of natural selection.

I suppose next your going to tell me that a cross between L. triangulum and L. getula should be an intergrade. All because they are in the genus Lampropeltis.

Maybe you should stop and think this. Scientists have determined that the following are different enough that they should be in their own SUB SPECIES.

Common Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula
California Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula californiae (Blainville, 1835)
Florida Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula floridana (Blanchard, 1919)
Eastern Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula getula (Linnaeus, 1766)
Apalachicola Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula meansi (Krysko & Judd, 2006)
Speckled Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki (Stejneger, 1902)
Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula niger (Yarrow, 1882)
Western Black Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula nigrita (Zweifel & Norris, 1955)
Desert Kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula splendida (Baird & Girard, 1853)
Isla Santa Catalina Kingsnake Lampropeltis "getula" catalinensis (Van Denburgh & Slevin, 1921)

And since they are in their own SUB SPECIES.... they are a distinct animal. Would like like to call it an 'intergrade' if I bred my Desert King to my Speckled King?

I do believe that is a hybrid... not an intergrade.... but yet they are both only sub-species of Lampropeltis getula or the Common Kingsnake.... which is the exact same thing you're trying to preach to all of us.How about we breed the California King to a Flordia King. Another "Intergrade"? YOUR logic is flawed. Intergrades have a chance of happening in nature and they are "Intergrades" when they do happen in nature.

Man made = Hybrid.

So if my wild caught desert king breeds with my wild caught speckled king in my snake room, the offspring are hybrid? And if the same two snakes had bred in the wild (as they often do in Texas), the offspring are intergrades? I'm not buying that arguement.