Bad Guy BAD EXPERIENCE: Kicks Balls / Fred Kick / Kick Brothers / Reptile Addicts / Pets Plus - FaunaClassifieds
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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. On 02-02-2020 the BOI will be deleted.

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Old 09-23-2017, 06:17 AM   #1
Johns Orange Dragons
BAD EXPERIENCE: Kicks Balls / Fred Kick / Kick Brothers / Reptile Addicts / Pets Plus

I purchased a big red female Nigerian Uromastyx from Kicks Balls (aka Fred Kick / aka Kick Brothers / aka Reptile Addicts / aka Pets Plus) in March 2017 at the Long Island Reptile Expo at Suffolk Community College in Brentwood, NY. I bought her for $85. A tall guy was selling her to us as he pressed in her sides and said she feels pregnant. She was not. I'm sure that was a sales tactic. Anyway, we never spend time in our Uromastyx room unless it's quick feeding and cleaning time, so we don't know if she was eating and pooping. She lived with a male who is the same size, and a smaller female. They are perfectly healthy. We noticed a couple of times when we give them their daily escarole/dandelion/collard greens mixture in a lid with water, she would walk over just to drink the water. She still climbed up to the basking spot and down at night to sleep. They were housed in a 40-gallon breeder tank with a Powersun 160-watt bulb, the hot spot is 110 degrees (the room is always warm), and the room is around 68 degrees overnight. We noticed she was sleeping a lot in the last 2 months and thought she was just tired. Instead we eventually realized that she was weak. I lifted her up and noticed the bottom of her tail no longer had any fat to it. The base of her tail on top also lost its fat, and her body thickness toward her armpits also lost some size. We decided to give her a bath and put "Pet Authority's Leapin Lizards Electrolytes With Vitamins And Minerals" in the water (she didn't drink at all), as well as directly onto her back (seeps into her skin), and orally (opened her mouth with tweezers). We also gave her some Grassland Grazer product orally with a syringe. We did this daily for 2 weeks as she would not eat or drink. Every 2 hours her eyes would open and she would move around, but the rest of the time she would sleep. We asked Kicks Balls for help, but they just said to do what we suggested ourselves.

She died in August. The baths, nor the electrolytes with vitamins, nor the Grassland Grazer product helped at all. Her body shut down and she slowly lost the rest of her fat in every other part of her body. When I think about it, every time we fed and cleaned them for the past 4 months, our other 2 Red Nigerian Uros were the only ones who ever ran over to the food as soon as we placed it inside the tank. I doubt if she ever ate anything at all and probably just lived off her own body fat, but I can't prove that since we never spent time in the reptile room other than to feed and clean them. Every time we walked in there, she was sleeping most of the time. ***Anonymous third-party quotation string removed by a moderator. - Nick*** I emailed them specifically asking if this is what they do, and they didn't deny it, so we assume that it is true. IF this is true, it's no wonder she didn't make it! How could they be more interested in making a quick buck instead of the welfare of the poor animal? So now I am not only out the $85 I've spent on her, but I've lost time and additional money on products trying to save her, lost a pet, received heartbreak from her death, and most importantly: she was robbed of a long life that she could have lived! IF what the reptile store said is true, ALL of this is because of Kicks Balls' (shows you their class in the name alone) neglect in the proper care of these animals prior to selling them to the public with their POOR business practices!!! We've done EVERYTHING PERFECTLY in the proper care of her, as her tank-mates were all healthy for years, so we know it was most definitely not our wrong-doing. If they expect to have happy customers and happy pets, they seriously need to start doing what's right on their end as a seller! Then not only did they decline a refund, but they had the gall to offer us a discount on another Uromastyx! If they honestly think that we would chance buying another sick animal from them again with their poor business practices, they're out of their minds!!! It's too bad we didn't consult the BOI on here prior to purchasing a lizard from them. There's bad feedback on them under all of their previous names: Fred Kick, Kick Brothers, Reptile Addicts, and Pets Plus. We could saved a lot of heart-ache for us, as well as our poor pet. Gee, we wonder why they've changed their name so many times. Got something to hide???
Old 09-23-2017, 06:52 AM   #2
Donald C
A bit of advice is that you should never, never introduce a brand new animal to your established collection. You should always quarantine the new arrivals so that you can quickly identify if there is a problem with the animal, without the risk of contaminating your other animals. Had you done so, you would have notices right away if it was eating or behaving normally.

In this case, you should get a necropsy done on the deceased uro. This will tell you how it died, and whether you need to treat your other uros.
Old 09-23-2017, 07:12 AM   #3
John, I will mention a few points that will be irrespective of specific care parameters.

Awareness. I would advise closer monitoring going forward. Better observational efforts would (or could) have led to discovery earlier and maybe the ability to intervene prior to some unknown tipping point. Not knowing if an animal was eating or defecating is not exactly something I would want to be able to claim if I were a caregiver.

Quarantine. How long of one is often arbitrarily assigned, but implementation of some kind is pretty much always a good practice. It can be determined to be unnecessary under specific sets of circumstances, but is still good practice in broad application. There are ways to drastically reduce the length as a measured risk, but that is achieved an advanced set of tactics that are well beyond the situation described.

Nothing appreciable was going to seep into her skin. Her skin is a barrier to loss as well as entry.

Time. You had approximately three months (or perhaps "only" two) elapse based on your timeline before you really even noticed something amiss (acquired in March, died in August, and noticed two months prior to death). That is well beyond a reasonable expectation of them doing anything and I am definitely not promoting them by any means. Did you take the animal to a veterinarian at all? I understand home care for bringing animals around, but there is a limit to what baths and supplements can achieve in various sets of circumstances and it appears you neither tested nor treated for potential parasitism (although you did expose other animals to that possibility). When those small measures were not reversing the decline, seeking assistance beyond your own abilities would be up for strong consideration.

We've done EVERYTHING PERFECTLY in the proper care of her
That has a slight aftertaste of hubris to it.

Reputation. That is supposed to be determined before purchase if at all possible. Long after the fact is not particularly useful to you as a buyer. As for their business name, I think it refers to ball/royal pythons, but I mostly lack clairvoyance. I have seen more obvious "balls" double entendre naming schemes if that is even in play here.

Per the rules, you need to name the party you are quoting. You have 24 hours to do so.
Old 09-23-2017, 07:24 AM   #4
John I am sorry to hear about you're loss. Its always tough when you lose an animal that you put money, time ,and love into. I think there are a few things you could have done differently with not only the original purchase, but with you're husbandry as well. A few mins searching the BOI on your cell at the show would have shown you numerous bad BOI threads involving the Kick Bros/Fred Kick/Kicks Balls.

You never took her to the vet for a check up or a fecal after you bought her. You were perceptive enough to notice that she never ate, and claimed that she was surviving off her stored fat and again did not take her to the vet. You had her for 6MONTHS before she died and its Freds fault? That is garbage. Your lack of vet care is what likely killed the Uro not Fred Kick. Maybe next time you have any animal that gets sick you take it to a vet instead of watching it die and then blaming the person you bought it from. Better luck next time John!
Old 09-23-2017, 08:45 AM   #5
Guy Castro
Originally Posted by Johns Orange Dragons View Post
I purchased a big red female Nigerian Uromastyx from Kicks Balls (aka Fred Kick / aka Kick Brothers / aka Reptile Addicts / aka Pets Plus) in March 2017 at the Long Island Reptile Expo... Anyway, we never spend time in our Uromastyx room unless it's quick feeding and cleaning time, so we don't know if she was eating and pooping.
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Old 09-23-2017, 09:36 AM   #6
You did "everything perfectly" yet introduced a brand new animal into an enclosure with other animals with literally zero quarantine and admittedly have no clue if she was eating or defecating regularly?

Is this the Twilight Zone? Are we being Punked by Ashton Cold-chair or whatever his name is? Seriously....?
Old 09-23-2017, 10:05 AM   #7
Most Nigerian Uromastyx for sale are wild-caught imports, first thing that should have been done is quarantine her and get a fecal sample to the vet.

I suggest improving on your husbandry, a 40 gallon breeder is not sufficient for even a single uromastyx. They like a basking temperature of 130-140 degrees and once you achieve that temperature, a 40 gallon breeder will not have enough temperature gradient to provide an adequate cool side. The minimum enclosure recommendation for uromastyx is a 4x2x2 tank.
Old 09-23-2017, 11:14 AM   #8
Andy_G quarantine, no observation and monitoring of a new animal, insufficient basking temps and insufficient space and 6 months until it dies. You actually did NOTHING right, never mind perfectly I am sorry to say. Hopefully you are new to this hobby and you will learn from your mistakes...if you aren't then I really doubt anyone sell to you after reading this.
Old 09-23-2017, 11:26 AM   #9
First of all, the Kicks are horrible.


You didn't properly research your animal's seller before buying it. You didn't quarantine. You housed it in an enclosure that was way too small for three animals. You didn't take the time to monitor a new animal's health and behavior and therefor didn't notice that there was a problem for months. She got no parasite testing even though you knew she was WC. (You should test your other animals now). You admit, and this is critical, you rarely observe your animals. When you did notice something was wrong, you didn't take her to the vet for two months and she died. When you asked the Kicks for advice they gave it to you. Why no vet?

Despite the fact that you were likely sold a WC piece of garbage, by scumbags, no seller is responsible for the death of an animal after 6 months. If you'd observed her more closely you could have made a case for a refund/return way earlier, but you were too NEGLIGENT. I agree the animal was probably already in rough shape when you got it, but WC animals come in that way all the time, and most of them make it with proper care. She was already in a bad way and shouldn't have been sold at all, but you are also responsible because you NEGLECTED HER TO DEATH.

When purchasing WC animals, there are three critical things and you didn't do any of them.

1) Quarantine
2) vet visit with fecal sample
3) observe the animal to make sure it is eating and behaving normally

If you can't quarantine, you should not get new animals. If you can't afford vet visits you should not have any animals at all. If you don't observe your animals and make sure they are eating, that is classic neglect.
Old 09-23-2017, 02:16 PM   #10
I thought this was going to be another bad guy Kicks Brothers thead .
I just don't see it here.
As others said there was so much more you should have done.
I have stumbled myself so I am not throwing rocks at you.

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