Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

OK King Lerer,

Time for some truth.

The first thing out of my mouth to you on the first basin was send her back for a 100% full refund. Which is not in my TOS, but you are a friend so I offered. Your only option is to sell the next animal to me at cost. Win, win for you on your sales. I went above and beyond my TOS for you. You wanted to keep her for a week and I refused to let you. You didn't insist on anything but using UPS. She was shipped to you by your shipper UPS. Even though she was damaged during shipping. End of that story. But nice try.

As for the "witness" you are trying to fabricate and elude to as a "subversive tactic," that would be my wife. We like to do a funny thing called spending time together. Even if I am on the phone. So she over heard the entire conversation. You should try and get one, they are fun to have. She also helped me pack everything that day. I guess you could call her agent 007 1/2. Nice misdirect King Lerer.

You remember her, the very lady that you treated in a piss poor manner. Resulting in her getting upset at you for your rude behavior towards her on the phone.

Now on to the sale of this animal.

You wanted her so badly you actually orchestrated another sale of one of my animals that wasn't up for sale to get this one. Remember Skippy?

Sound like me pressuring you to buy? NOT.
I refused to to sell her to you in the beginning and after multiple previous attempts by you to get her back. Nice twisitng again King Lerer.

This animal in question was never posted for sale on any site for any price. Prove it otherwise. You wanted it and in King Lerer style you went after it.

As for anyone asking about recent pics, more of your made up fantasy King Lerer. No one has asked for any recent pics. Nice try at lying. But if you think you are right, simply prove it with this imaginary person. (dates, times, emails, phone bills with my number on it, anything tangible)

As for the rest let me post the entire email that King Lerer is so eloquently cutting up for his purposes. It will out line the entire transaction and agreements in which King Lerer freely agreed to on more than one occasion.

It started off with this one after the phone tag we played.

----- Original Message -----
From: GhiReptiles@aol.com
To: suticat@insight.rr.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:36 PM
Subject: Terms


Arboreals Of The Rainforest
Tim Bowles

As per your terms of agreement I am notifying you within 24 hours of receipt of my shipment that the 'New Locale' Female that was shipped to me will be returned. I will attempt to return the animal on 07-17-03 to your place of residence. The animal is being returned because of reasons discussed in our private telephone conversation on 07-16-03 at approximately 10:30 PM.

Thank You
Matt Lerer

King Lerer was told of my work schedule on the phone and knew that no one would be home that day prior to this email. Nice twist Matt. Nothing subversive about it. You knew, plain and simple where I was and what I was doing.


So, after listening to him twist the details that he agreed to way in advance of the sale and shipping, I was instructed to send him this email and remind him of the details he was conveniently leaving out.

All of which he did admit to again on the phone on the night I got home at 10:00 pm from work. Unlike the daddy's little boy, some of us actually have real jobs and our own homes.

Matt,

It's disappointing to hear that my fear of shipping an animal via UPS has again become reality.

This animal was packed as you directed and specified as per our verbal business agreement. The bag was not wet, nor was anything wet put in the bag or box upon shipment. This obviously occurred while in the possession of UPS -- your chosen shipper.

I packed the box according to your instructions and I have someone who can verify that this was done exactly as you instructed to ensure safe delivery despite UPS unsafe handling methods. According to industry standards, the box was insulated with foam, it had air holes, the snake was in an escape proof bag, and newspaper was used for cushioning to help prevent possible injury while being handled by UPS personnel who are notorious for being rough with the packages they ship. These uncaring and dangerous handling methods are only a couple of the major reasons I did not want to ship this animal using their "professional" services. It was shipped against my choice of Airborne upon your demands of using UPS as stipulated in our agreement.

You and I discussed my concerns and issues regarding UPS shipping on more than one occasion and we have had a previous bad experience using their services. You were told and completely agreed to the fact that I would offer no guarantees on this animals condition once it left my care and you would assume all liability of its arrival condition since I used your preferred shipping method. You knew this up front and agreed to these terms well in advance of the shipment date.

The fastest shipping option offered by UPS is a noon delivery time and that is the way you wanted it shipped. I complied as per the terms of our agreement. You also stated that your neighbor worked for UPS and would ensure it arrived to you by 830 am. It didn't despite your insistence that it would. It actually arrived at 901 am your time.

Below are the tracking times documented by UPS:




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Track by Tracking Number


View Details

View Details




Status: Delivered
Delivered on: Jul 16, 2003 9:01 A.M.

Location: FRT DOOR
Delivered to: US



Tracking Number: J148 0614 716
Service Type: NEXT DAY AIR





Package Progress:


Date Time Location Activity

Jul 16, 2003 9:01 A.M. RIVIERA BEACH, FL, US DELIVERY
7:48 A.M. RIVIERA BEACH, FL, US OUT FOR DELIVERY
7:09 A.M. RIVIERA BEACH, FL, US ARRIVAL SCAN
6:50 A.M. WEST PALM BEACH, FL, US DEPARTURE SCAN
6:10 A.M. WEST PALM BEACH, FL, US ARRIVAL SCAN
4:15 A.M. LOUISVILLE, KY, US DEPARTURE SCAN
Jul 15, 2003 6:57 P.M. OBETZ, OH, US ORIGIN SCAN

Tracking results provided by UPS: Jul 16, 2003 6:37 P.M. Eastern Time (USA)





I am sorry that this animal did not arrive in the same condition that it was in upon shipment. But as per our verbal contractual agreement, there are no guarantees of any kind on my part regarding the arrival condition of this animal. You willingly agreed to and accepted these terms in advance and also agreed to assumed full liability for its arrival condition. I have fulfilled the obligations of our verbal contract as agreed upon by both parties.

To alleviate any doubt, you may be interested to know that of the 4 animals shipped out that same day, only 1 ended in a problem: yours. This was also the only one that was shipped UPS.

After talking to several animal breeders and dealers that have opinions that I value, I have had to come to the following conclusion and honor our original verbal contract and agreement.

In conclusion, I also informed you per our private phone conversation on 7-16-03 that there would be no one available to receive this shipment. You are shipping your animal at your own risk and negligence.

Please read my terms page carefully and understand the verbal contract to which you freely agreed as outline above.
I have provided a copy of my terms page below for your convenience.

TERMS OF AGREEMENT

Trade arrangements are made with the understanding that we will only ship after trade animals have been received and examined by us.

A 25% deposit will hold an animal that is in stock and available for 30 days. (unless other arrangements have been made). I am very flexible with payment so please contact me if you need to make any special arrangements. Your satisfaction is most important to me as well as the well being of the animal.

All orders must be paid by check or money order, PayPal coming soon. When submitting payment in form of Money Order or Check, make them payable to Tim Bowles. If paying with a personal check, your order will not be shipped or deposit accepted, until the check clears, about 10 days. Snakes will be shipped Delta Air cargo. Shipping charges to and from our location is the buyers responsibility, unless other arrangements have been made. Shipment may be delayed due to adverse weather conditions.

All animals are guaranteed to arrive alive and outwardly healthy if order is picked up within 4 hours of delivery. Orders picked up more than four hours after delivery will not be guaranteed. Temperature below 50f on both ends of delivery will void live arrival guarantee. Gross negligence on the part of the buyer will void the guarantee. Arboreals of the Rainforest WILL NOT be responsible for mishandling or delays of shipments by the carrier.

Return of dead animal will be required for Necropsy if animal should expire during shipping. Gender is guaranteed as represented. You must notify us within 24 hours if you are dissatisfied.

Please ask us if you have any care or maintenance questions. It's easier to prevent a problem than to fix one. There will be no cash refunds, All Sales Are Final.






Tim Bowles
Arboreals of the Rainforest
http://www.greentreesnakes.com

Again,
King Lerer was told of my work schedule and knew that no one would be home that day. Nice twist Matt. Nothing subversive about it.

----- Original Message -----
From: GhiReptiles@aol.com
To: suticat@insight.rr.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:36 PM
Subject: Terms


Arboreals Of The Rainforest
Tim Bowles

As per your terms of agreement I am notifying you within 24 hours of receipt of my shipment that the 'New Locale' Female that was shipped to me will be returned. I will attempt to return the animal on 07-17-03 to your place of residence. The animal is being returned because of reasons discussed in our private telephone conversation on 07-16-03 at approximately 10:30 PM.

Thank You
Matt Lerer

So as for the rest fo my story, this email was sent so I am only abiding by King Lerers wishes.

Tim,

I am sorry it has come to this but please do not contact me any further reguarding this incident unless you need information about where to send the $2,500.00 that you owe me and you are giving me a time to return your animal.

Matt Lerer

And herpcondo,
Some of us actually have jobs and don't set on the computer all day wating to serve you. You will just wait until I get home to anwer King Lerer or you for that matter.

More to come later.................

Oh yes, I almost forgot.

Matt stop calling. If you want to converse with me about this do it in emails. That way you can't twist your way around the truth.

Ummm.....ok
UPS guys handling packages rough could happen....
But when did they start opening packages and injecting snakes full of fluids to rehydrate them before sending them on their way?

You're not really trying to imply that the package arriving at 9:01am instead of 8:30am made the difference here, are you?

Matt, call a lawyer and if you paid by credit card try to get the charges reversed.

okay I am all confused.

Tim, are you saying you are offering a refund?


Matt,
Time for you to get what the vet says in writing and post it here.

1... if it is in writing by a vet.... Then Tim sold you a sick animal.
It does not matter whether he refunds or what not...He sold you a sick animal and he knew it.

2. If you can't get it in writing....Well I kinda think the people who spoke here with experience on arboreals have pretty much enlightened us on how sick that animal is.

Either way get it in writing.

TIM,,
i have a full time job thank you,,
I am the business manager of a multi- million dollar yacht company,, so I don't have tiMe to just sit here either,,,

but what i got from what you posted was the snake was "not for sale" and that is the reason you sold him the snake in that condition..? or did the magic fairly overnight turn a perfect snake into what is in the pictures?
you took his money didn't you...?
how would you feel if you paid for the snake and got it like that..?

Matt post what the vet said in writing,,,
and then see what Tim says then,,,
give Matt a refund...( do the right thing)

First of all Tim thanks for posting! Let me help you with some of your 'twists' here.

You wanted to keep her for a week and I refused to let you.

Actually Tim if you remember correctly I said the only way I would keep her is if I kept her for 'three' weeks to make sure she was going to do ok. That should definately ring a bell. Then you got mad and said, "no, send her back". That was the end of that.

Even though she was damaged during shipping.

She WAS damaged during shipping but only because she was an 8lb., six foot animal in a container I would ship a two year old animal in.....16quart container. I think it would be safe to say she was fighting for her life in there.

As for the "witness" you are trying to fabricate and elude to as a "subversive tactic," that would be my wife.

YOU were the one that told me you had a witness in our phone conversation.

King Lerer

?

Don't be a follower Tim, it doesn't suit you. Especially since you and I have both made fun of the guy who started that. Remember?

You remember her, the very lady that you treated in a piss poor manner. Resulting in her getting upset at you for your rude behavior towards her on the phone.

Sorry that is the way she took my conversation but...like I asked you if I was being mean to you on the phone that same night and you said no and I said I was being 10 times nicer to her then you...Remember? I do.

You wanted her so badly you actually orchestrated another sale of one of my animals that wasn't up for sale to get this one. Remember Skippy?

Actually I prefer to be called JIF but it doesn't matter. YOU were the one that told me that the buyer contacted you and I could buy the female if he got the male. I said I knew him and I would talk to him and I could probably get him to buy it. And what do you know I talked to him, told him how solid your animals were and that I completely trusted you to not sell animals with problems and he bought it! It is still doing ok even though it arrived at his place late and the inside of the box was 94 degrees

Sound like me pressuring you to buy? NOT.

Reread it Tim I said, you said I was pressuring you to sell her.

This animal in question was never posted for sale on any site for any price. Prove it otherwise. You wanted it and in King Lerer style you went after it.

Never said it was posted for sale. All I said was that you told me that because it was NOT actually for sale you said there was no health guarantee. You know Tim a lot of this conversation took place late at night after your work so maybe you don't remember it that well, but I do.

No one has asked for any recent pics. Nice try at lying. But if you think you are right, simply prove it with this imaginary person. (dates, times, emails, phone bills with my number on it, anything tangible)

Actually Tim he asked you if YOU had any recent pics and YOU told him no. I will not say who he is unless I have his permission. But here is a hint....you called him wednesday night too

As for the rest let me post the entire email that King Lerer is so eloquently cutting up for his purposes. It will out line the entire transaction and agreements in which King Lerer freely agreed to on more than one occasion.

Sorry Tim but your recollection of our 'business deal' is a bit off. It was very simple....if anything happens to the animal during shipping YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE. Nothing happened during shipping that made the animal the way it is. Two vets that trained with Elliot Jacobson and ten expert corallus enthisiasts cant all be wrong can they?

Don't the pictures speak volumes to you tim? Just like when I asked you to look at them and you wouldn't. Remember what you said? You said that happened during shipping. If you didn't look at the pictures how could you know what I was talking about? How do you know I wasn't kidding when I described the snake?

King Lerer was told of my work schedule and knew that no one would be home that day. Nice twist Matt. Nothing subversive about it.

Ok so when are you going to be home so I can send your snake back? If there was nothing wrong with her you should have no problem taking her back.

More to come later.................

I hope it's a self addressed stamped box for your snake.

Some points here.

1. Tim wrote he didn't want to sell the animal or ship it UPS. Ever hear of the word "No"? We have said it to Matt more than once when he wanted an animal we have, took quite a few times, but he finally accepted it. Tim was the shipper, he had the final say in the matter of how it was shipped.

2. As far as the witness, I'm not questioning Tim's wife's integrity/honesty, but in a court of law, opposing counsel would make mincemeat out of any testimony she was even ALLOWED to offer, as she would benefit or be hurt materially from the resolution of this issue.

3. No way did shipping cause this animal's problem. Shipping, if anything, would cause dehydration. Her blood chemistries (yes, my husband and I have been told some of the lab results by Matt) are on the EXTREMELY LOW side, to a near fatal, if not fatal degree. This is from over-hydration and/or not eating in a VERY long time. Dehydration causes extremely HIGH values in blood chemistries. I work in the human medical field, as does Tim, this is not uncommon knowledge.

Besides that, the animal, by Tim's own post, was in transit 14 hours, DURING THE COOLEST PARTS OF THE DAY. We've had one of our baby basins in transit almost that long via AIR! It arrived perfectly fine.

4. As someone else pointed out, Tim appears to be selling a large part if not all of his collection. Why Tim? Between this one and the basin, it looks kind of odd.

Karen Clark

Tim,

After I asked you if you had injected the snake with any type of hydrating solution you could hear a pin drop for five to seven seconds and then in a very low voice said, I never injected that animal. I told you that was good enough for me and I still stand by that. But why the long pause? I would have immediately snapped heck no or absolutely not or something like that. Why the wet bag and newspaper? The lab in miami says no trace of urine, urates, fecal matter, or crystals (whatever those are) were present. Also I never saw it but I have been told by several people that you put something in the internet about injecting emeralds that are dehydrated and discussed how to do it. Is that true?

Tim, help me understand a few things man, let's get this worked out.

It's disappointing to hear that my fear of shipping an animal via UPS has again become reality. This animal was packed as you directed and specified as per our verbal business agreement. The bag was not wet, nor was anything wet put in the bag or box upon shipment. This obviously occurred while in the possession of UPS -- your chosen shipper.

I don't think the issue at hand has anything to do with the shipping of the animal. It's the FACT (when we see a vet report) that this animal was sent with a pre-exhisiting problem that the buyer was not aware of. And also due to the animal's severe overhydration issue I am in agreement that this is something you had to be aware of before sending it out to Matt, purposely hiding it? Is this true Tim, because this really isn't your style man.

You were told and completely agreed to the fact that I would offer no guarantees on this animals condition once it left my care and you would assume all liability of its arrival condition since I used your preferred shipping method. You knew this up front and agreed to these terms well in advance of the shipment date.

I don't think Matt would have agreed to paying 2500.00 for a snake in that sorry of a condition Tim. C'mon man, let's use some common sense. This has nothing to do with something the animal sustained because of faulty shipping or mishandling by the carrier. This was a serious health problem that the buyer wasn't made aware of Tim. According to your own TOS that's gronds for a refund via your "satisfaction guarantee".

The fastest shipping option offered by UPS is a noon delivery time and that is the way you wanted it shipped. I complied as per the terms of our agreement. You also stated that your neighbor worked for UPS and would ensure it arrived to you by 830 am. It didn't despite your insistence that it would. It actually arrived at 901 am your time.

Tim, have you read this paragraph after typing it man? The time of arrival hasn't anything to do with the condition of the snake...
And I'm pretty sure the standard overnite service for UPS states that most packages arrive before 10:30 am...there's also an early a.m. option that guarantees an earlier delivery.

Tim, you've always been a rational guy, quick to point out a badguy...don't become one and try to be objective here.

Also I never saw it but I have been told by several people that you put something in the internet about injecting emeralds that are dehydrated and discussed how to do it. Is that true?

Again nice twisting King Lerer. This is the only type of
post on the entire WWW that I posted with any reference to injections.


Keep twisting.

Tree Boa For Life

Group: 100% Corallus
Posts: 494
Joined: Mar. 2002
Posted: June 14 2003,17:58

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My vet has been working with a different form of treatment in regards to RI. The injection route has some complications involved that may slow or hinder the treatment process. The injections are to be administered IM and most are only delivered SQ which slows or stops the absorption of the medication considerably. Even after this tx method seems to have worked, the animal may do fine for a long period of time and suddenly drop over dead with out any apparent cause or just simply waste away and never seem to fully recover. After several deaths the necropsies revealed that the infection had sealed itself off (encapsulated) in the lower third of the lungs and was not being effectively treated. It can become and was asymptomatic but still raging in a full blown infectious process. These studies where done on many types of snakes, not just corallus caninus. This caused them to look at it from a different perspective and take a more direct approach at tx.

Treatment Process:
The method that he is using is a Nebulizer breathing treatment. A hospital grade Nebulizer is filled with the ATB that the pathogen is sensitive to along with a Mucomyst and NS. They are put in a small sealed tub with the Nebulizer and it is run until the medication is gone. Then the animal is allowed to stay in that tub another 1-2 hours to ensure maximizing the breathing treatment. Clean water daily is a must in the cage. Always use a separate tub that can be cleaned and disinfected between tx. and not the cage the animal is housed in. Take this time to do a quick cleaning of the cage with a good disinfectant.

Dosages:
The dosage is higher than that of an injection. In these cases it was 1 cc Amikacin, 1 cc of the Mucomyst, and 8 cc of sterile NS (normal saline or 0.9% NaH20). The interval is the same, every 3 days for a series of 10 tx. The process takes about 3 hours from start to finish.

The dosages that are used at my Vets are as follows.

Amikacin was 50 mgs per ml and 1 ml was added to the Nebulizer.

Mucomyst was a 10% solution and 1 ml was used.

Plus 8 cc of sterile NS.

These are not titrated to weight but are a standard protocol they use. Only what they inhale is what they receive. So make the treatment last as long as possible.


Rational:
Mucomsyt to thin the secretions for easier expelling and breakdown of the mucus and to allow the medication to penetrate it faster.
Pathogen sensitive ATB to kill the pathogen. Cultures are a must.
The Nebulizer is employed to get the ATB directly into the lungs where the infection is harboring. The lungs of a snake are very long and slender which can allow for them to encapsulate the lower portions much easier than that of larger species of animals.

Several local well known breeders who asked not to be mentioned are already doing this tx. method with great success. Usually after 3 or 4 tx. the infection and all signs of it are all but gone. After several long conversations with them, they agreed on its effectiveness over that of the injections. With a few more case studies under there belts, they plan on coming forward with this information as well.


Foot note:
Since this post they have started to add the injections at a lower dose for more severe cases of URI's.

If that is to much to hassle with try the standard injection route with the combo of Amikacin and Fortaz and a SubQ injection of LR with each dose to flush the kidneys.

Dosages for injections:

Amikacin= 50 mg/ml
Fortaz= 28 mg/ml

Fortaz degrades quickly at room temperature once the powder is reconstituted, so make up .1cc doses and freeze them immediately. Then thaw one out each time you need, and measure out the dose if the snake is less than 1000 gm. (800 gm snake gets .08cc). The shelf life of frozen Fortaz is one year.

Start with a high loading dose of Amikacin on day one (50 mg/ml, 5mg/kl = .1cc/ 1000 gm animal) followed by a dose of Fortaz (280 mg/ml, 28 mg/kg = .1cc /1000 gm) day two. Give one day off, then begin a series of injections every three days of both the Fortaz and a maintenance dose of Amikacin (2.5 mg/kg = .05cc/ 1000 gm) until the snake has been given a total of 10 injections of each drug over 30 days.

This comes up in a search on the Corallus forum, it's not looking good man...

Ralph
I hope your vet told that Amikacin is very hard on the kidneys. I trust they are having you give them a 5-10 cc sub Q injection of Lactated Ringers along with every dose of it.

If not, I would start doing it if I where you to prevent a major kidney crisis. Normal drinking is not enough to help flush the kidneys.

Tim

Post on Corallus.com about injecting lactated ringers into body cavities...