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Board of Inquiry® This forum is provided exclusively for the discussion of specific persons or businesses in the herp industry. |
10-19-2011, 12:59 AM
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#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolinaClassicDragons
I do not have a picture of the one that lived. Anthony does. I can get some good ones tomorrow if it really matters. Point is, I had a specific plan for the dragon that died as it was a higher quality trans IN MY OPINION. I was going to breed it to a het trans male. I can tell you from experience that taking a het to a partial trans doesn't result in the kind of offspring I like to produce. So, the dragon that died is more valuable to me. So maybe some on here think a visible hypo is more valuable. See where I am going here? It is all subjective. I have agreed to accept $400 and split it down the middle. Anyone, including me, giving their opinion on value, is just that, giving their opinion. If Anthony is so convinced that the living dragon is worth more, then why doesn't he just let me return the dragon and he refund me in full and then he sells the dragon for what he thinks it is worth? This offer was given to him earlier today but he didn't want to do it.
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I see where you are going.
As this was a package deal, then in my opinion, half should be returned. She was a beautiful girl.
But you are right, it is a matter of opinion on which was worth more. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all.
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10-19-2011, 01:06 AM
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#22
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Anthony, I have a question for you ... Did you call Dave ignorant, based on his statement that he thought the dead dragon was worth more? I have seen nothing in Dave's emails to indicate that he is ignorant or a bully. It is a tragedy that she died, but you need to make good on you LAG, and not sound rude when you do it.
Quote:
well if tom told me she was a partial trans then it must have been whispered to me when i was in a different room. ill tell you what, since you are by far the more ignorant person i have ever had to deal with in my life ill have your 400$ in your paypal asap. i have seen people get drug through the mud who talk with more respect then you do. i guess it may be because you feel like you have been around for a while so you can talk to people any way you want and be rude and disrespectful and bully your way into what you want, i heard so many bad things about you after you paypal'd me that money, and people were right i shouldn't have dealt with you. this was a clear freak accident. your talking to me like i purposely did it and that i told you your not getting anything back for it. i dont know who you think you are talking to me like that "paypal me by this afternoon" it takes days to transfer money IN and OUT of paypal, i don't keep money sitting in my paypal account. you will have your money in your account the SECOND paypal tells me its available. i hope you can buy a little respect with the 400$ so next time a freak accident occurs you don't act like such a rude person. i have been in far worse situations then this where people have sold me fake double hets then a year later i prove them fake. and i have never gotten on someone like this and have been this ignorant i gave them time to fix it before i did anything. you really represent this HOBBY in a terrible way with how you talk to people. you should probably take a step back, because these are things i heard before i dealt with you and now they are things i know personally. the immediate second that money is available to send you on paypal you will have it in your account. good luck with everything with the dachiu girl.
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Also, if you don't feel that the one that died is worth $400, then allow Dave to ship the other one back and you can refund the $800.
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10-19-2011, 01:07 AM
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#23
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Anthony, Dave has suggested two options. Either a refund on half of the amount paid, or he will ship the other dragon back for a full refund. If you really think the one that survived is the best of the two, you shouldnt have a problem with this as Dave would be the one out of a dragon that is worth more than $400. Both of his options are fair.
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10-19-2011, 01:14 AM
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#24
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wow....so now im being profiled because of other hobbys?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaldrago
Let's check out some facts here... I think Dave Freeman understands dragons and how to care for them... The simple fact that Dave loves his hobby and his business and cares about the quality of his dragons speaks volumes. Look at that poor dragon that died... it was beautiful... That said any question on what he did when receiving a dying or dead dragon plays zero part in any of this...
And i'm sorry anyone with the email mdskillz1717 and pictures of guns does not give me faith in a dragon breeder of quality and also bringing it on here to discredit someone instead of dealing like mature adults over a business deal gets zero respect from me. If Dave sent me a dead dragon he would gladly compensate for it. The same should be done in this deal. Yes it is a bummer for both parties but you know what... think about the dragon. She had zero say in it . - Good luck.
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ok all i can say to that statement is...wow, im glad i don't have such close minded people trying to defend me. first of all im not the first person on fauna who has posted pictures of guns. Yes i am a fan of guns it is one of my many hobby's just like reptiles. i think there's something written about guns in that thing called the 2nd amendment? yeah thats the one... There is NOTHING wrong with me posting pictures of my other hobby on my personal avatar and profile page. If you are that close minded to profile me a bad person because i like guns then so be it, your entitled to that i guess.
Secondly how does an email i made years ago reflect the type of person again all i can say is wow...i don't have a website so i use my personal email i created years ago, but again if that makes me a bad person then again so be it.
and lastly i never came in here and said anything bad about dave or anything close. i posted questions i had about the situation, i never said Dave wasn't getting his money back ever. i actually offered him 300$ in return because the dragon that died was clearly the cheaper of the 2 he got. daves opinion on which dragon was worth more to him does not in any way reflect the market value of genetics. both dragons were almost twins in color and pattern except one was a visual hypo and trans. that being said obviously the hypo trans is worth more money. i offered Dave 300$ for the trans dragon that died and he threw it back in my face.
Again i just came in here to see peoples opinions about the situation, theres no need to be closed minded and mock me and judge me about my email name and my hobbys, so thank you for shedding some light on what type of person you are.
here is one picture of each female sent...
picture one is the supposed inferior Hypo trans that Dave keeps playing off as some worthless dragon.....
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10-19-2011, 01:23 AM
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#25
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They are both beautiful.
If you disagree with Dave on returning $400, why do you not accept his offer to send the remaining dragon back for a full refund?
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10-19-2011, 01:23 AM
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#26
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Dave called the dragon worthless?
So which of Dave's two options are you going to go with? Both are more than fair.
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10-19-2011, 02:13 AM
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#27
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Deep breath...and...GO!
Firstly,
I tend to agree with Anthony that he shouldn't be profiled for his apparent "hobbies" and his allegedly arcane e-mail address. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I made the very same point last week in the thread about Kathy Weeks. That has no bearing on whether or not you're handling this transaction and your customer's justified dissatisfaction properly and professionally, just as Kathy's personal life or physical ability/disability had nothing to do with whether or not she stole the geckos from the Chicago show in Tinley Park.
Sadly though, just as in the other situation, profiled or not, your case has a ton of holes in it, Anthony.
You sold Dave both dragons for $800 without discussing perceived value of each of them independently. Fine. Let's go on with the theory that they were sold as a whole single unit then. Since ahead of time, no arrangements were made, you have to rely on good ole' logic to solve this. You sent Dave the package worth $800. Half of it is dead. You owe him $400. Value is subjective, I know. Personally, I'm on the side that the hypo partial trans girl would be worth more, but again, that doesn't really matter. He offered to accept the refund for half, and that's the right thing to do. If your thoughts indicate that the other dragon, the living one, is worth more, accept her back for a full refund. Plenty of other people saw that ad, I'm sure you could turn around and sell her. Bottom line: Dave's offers, both of them, are professionally sound and equally equitable. Take one, and save some face. The issues with how the girls were shipped is another subject entirely - and don't even get me started on the "why did it take 2 hours for him to tell me" -- it's never a pleasant thing to have to tell a seller: "look, you send me a dead lizard"...and I don't know about you, I take photos from the second I open a box with a shipped reptile, so that every step is documented JUST IN CASE something like this happens. It made sense that the photo was taken before the attempted water-revival. Nit-picking, and for what? I guarantee you the second he saw that she was indeed not breathing, he put the camera down and starting going through the mental emergency handbook.
I'm taking issue with the fact that in the beginning, when you were painting yourself as the "concerned businessperson" (scare quotes!) who was "just trying to make things right with a customer" who you "respected" and "weren't trying to attack", you conveniently didn't see the point in posting the e-mail thread.
Hmm...I wonder why.
Perhaps it's because of the fact that when offered two completely logical solutions to the problem that theoretically, it is your responsibility to rectify properly, you flew off the handle and started in with the "he-said, she-said" hearsay garbage, the unfounded personal attacks, and so on and so forth. Hypocrisy is not a good look on anyone, Anthony. You knew that if that surfaced, it would threaten your credibility in this matter. Dave is good guy, an excellent friend, a great herper, and above all, he's thorough. If you would have recognized that from the beginning, you would've known right away that he would post the e-mail thread. He has nothing to hide. You did. Minus one point for selective material evidence.
I'd be irritated too if I were given the run-around for a week, only to find at the 89th hour that the main purpose of my purchase was rendered obsolete. But still, Dave maintained the professional upper hand and didn't resort to personal attacks to try and prove a point.
Send him the $400, and try not to do it kicking and screaming.
Dave, scrolling down to the bottom of this page just shows "Carolina Classic Dragons/Dave Freeman" sitting pretty alongside a bunch of big green check marks. Don't sweat this.
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10-19-2011, 02:16 AM
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#28
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Also, for the record, I didn't find it necessary to restate how awful and tragic it is that the poor, sweet dragon arrived dead, particularly considering the fact that she appeared to have been, to the naked eye, in good health. Nobody is disputing that, so if I came off as cold and callous, I apologize. The nuts and bolts of this brouhaha have less to do with the dragons themselves than the manner in which the transaction was handled.
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10-19-2011, 02:24 AM
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#29
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10-19-2011, 02:39 AM
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#30
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Before I post i would like to state that I am pretty neutral in this situation. I respect David and his work. As a fellow breeder I would not hesitate to recommend David to anyone.
An as for Anthony, he is a new guy trying to get started. He asks alot of question (trust me ) and has a passion for this hobby.
As for the situation, I know Anthony doesnt have the rep. or credibility. But after time has gone by I know he's not trying to get over on anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaldrago
Let's check out some facts here... I think Dave Freeman understands dragons and how to care for them... The simple fact that Dave loves his hobby and his business and cares about the quality of his dragons speaks volumes.
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Thats very nice, but what does it has to do with the d.o.a.?
Hey maybe thats a good point. Dave knows his stuff, has been around awhile. Why did he wait 2 hrs for first contact on a d.o.a. ? I think thats the only thing I dont like.
Did that dragon sit in the box for two hours inside, with a heat pack? Did he open the box at the time of arrival and it was dead? Then tried to revive it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaldrago
And i'm sorry anyone with the email mdskillz1717 and pictures of guns does not give me faith in a dragon breeder of quality and also bringing it on here to discredit someone instead of dealing like mature adults over a business deal gets zero respect from me.
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Judging a book by it's cover??? You will learn one day my friend.
Pictures and hobbies dont tell you anything about a man's business eithic's.
My hobbies and business ethic's are black and white.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaldrago
If Dave sent me a dead dragon he would gladly compensate for it.
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Really has this happened? If you waited 2 hours to contact David to say "hey your dragon is dead" Would his first response be okay your replacement will be shipped out tomorrow? (no offense dave trying to make a point)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake-Queen
Dave, Do you have any pictures of the dragon that lived? If the point of discontent is the worth of each dragon, a few pictures for the members to compare might help.
You say the one that died is the more expensive dragon and the OP says it is the one that lived. So maybe with a few pics of the live one, some of this he said, he said could be cleared.
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As David has stated its a matter of opinion. BUT the coloration of the two animals are close to the same. So in this case the translucent (one that died) is worth less. The only time a dragon of lesser genetic's is worth more than a higher genetic animal, is based on color. Like if that translucent was solid orange or solid red. Thats usually the ONLY time something of lower genetic's is more expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina Gauvin
Imo, Dave did notify you within a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't matter if he tried to revive her. I'd be more concerned if he didn't care enough to try. I don't remember if the price included shipping, but if it did, I'd deduct shipping costs and refund half of the balance.
:eek3:
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I am going to agree with you. Except on the notifying time. Two hours after receiving a d.o.a. Is alittle long. Beings it is David I personally WOULD give him the benefit of doubt by saying it was a D.O.A. And Working on a refund.
As for the refund. I think you guys should meet in the middle. Dave you want 400. IMHO its not fair for a 400 split.... The hypo trans IS worth more.
If you take shipping (anthony paid for) deduct it which was $65
total is $735 divided by two is $367.50......
NOW Anthony said 300 Dave wants 400. Dave only paid 367.50 for the animal. Why and the hell should he get 400 back?
SO why cant both of you do 350 and put this to bed???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake-Queen
I see where you are going.
As this was a package deal, then in my opinion, half should be returned. She was a beautiful girl.
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So if you sold two cars to a buyer. You sold your mercedes for 6000 and your ford pinto for 500. and the pinto quit running and the customer wanted half of that 6500 hundred back, you would refund them 3250 for the pinto???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake-Queen
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all.
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An the price is in the hands of the seller.
I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back. This man can walk away and not give him anything. So lets try working with each other.
Since the price of one dragon was only 367.50 ( not to mention Anthony paid paypal fees on 800 bucks)
Can we get 350 to resolve it? You both are more mature than this...
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