Drew at Underground Reptiles stole 784$

Have to say there is a ton of off topic posting here. The simple fact in this matter is, businesses do not run for free and employees don't work for trident layers AND merchant accounts have fees for everything! His credit card company will most certainly retract payment and UG as most all real businesses have to stick with their terms or you will have people doing this daily. Whether 5 minutes or 5 hours were spent processing this order his employees are getting paid. It's unfortunate so much bashing comes out of completely legitimate practices. But as always you can not please everyone. I will say Underground is a great shop with a great staff. Hopefully people make their decisions from personal experience instead of what someone posts here! Last thing I want to point out is Drew was following policy as is part of his job responsibilities and if Rian attempts to contact you directly and you don't address it you obviously weren't too concerned in my opinion. So why come here now and complain and then throw accusations of a prior bad animal? Doesn't add up IMO!

Originally Posted by Redfeet

So why come here now

I think Underground should be delighted that the OP posted. This thread creates a 'bright line', underscoring that there are no refunds under any circumstances with this company and that they will stick to their TOS come hell or high water.
So customers seeking a little bit of flexibility for changing needs and circumstances, would do best to avoid doing business with Underground at all. Having a TOS is a good thing, finding a company that will waive their TOS for nominal incidents like this one is something to consider when looking for companies to do business with.

There are too many companies out there to bother Underground, and to bother with Underground, if they do not suit one's philosophy of doing business.

He offered a refund. He tried to contact him. He saw him in person after and he didn't even address it then. If he had talked to Rian personally maybe he would have made an exception... offered a discount on another purchase... who knows? If I feel someone owes me money I'm not sending texts or avoiding calls. I pick up the phone!

Originally Posted by Redfeet

all real businesses have to stick with their terms

Originally Posted by Redfeet

If he had talked to Rian personally maybe he would have made an exception.

Are you saying that you think Underground is not a real business, or that contrary to you first post, you do in fact think it is OK for a business to be a little flexible depending on the situation?

Why don't you put the whole quote up there.. I was more than clear in my posts. Unsubscribing now!

Originally Posted by Redfeet

Have to say there is a ton of off topic posting here. The simple fact in this matter is, businesses do not run for free and employees don't work for trident layers AND merchant accounts have fees for everything! His credit card company will most certainly retract payment and UG as most all real businesses have to stick with their terms or you will have people doing this daily. Whether 5 minutes or 5 hours were spent processing this order his employees are getting paid. It's unfortunate so much bashing comes out of completely legitimate practices. But as always you can not please everyone. I will say Underground is a great shop with a great staff. Hopefully people make their decisions from personal experience instead of what someone posts here! Last thing I want to point out is Drew was following policy as is part of his job responsibilities and if Rian attempts to contact you directly and you don't address it you obviously weren't too concerned in my opinion. So why come here now and complain and then throw accusations of a prior bad animal? Doesn't add up IMO!

I am glad you have had good experiences with UG. You are lucky. I can tell you with certainty that under the TOS and rules associated with his merchant account he can not charge a restocking fee when nothing was restocked the animals were never shipped and the customer never picked them up. I guess we can debate whether it is ethical for UG to charge this customer 15% when no work was done and the customer cancelled the order 2 hours after placing it but, the fact is he can not charge this fee per his merchant account.

Originally Posted by ElliotNess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK_aCwwPUcY

Transcribed from the video starting at :54

I love these animals, that's why I do this. Nothing bothers us more at underground reptiles than having people on the internet and and any kind of board of inquiry or anything like that say we're just in it for the money..

I expected at least a hair flexibility from one who professes to be in it for the love.


Transcribed from video starting at 3:16

Now a lot of guys been asking what happened to our caiman lizard project. Happened was we had bought caiman lizards and um spent a lot of money on them when they first came in and then when the price seemed to crash on them financially it didn't seem to be the smartest thing. We're gonna start up our caiman lizard project again when the price bottoms out and then we could get new stock but a zoo came and offered us big money for our bigger adults and it was worth it - they were getting a good home.

The prices drop and you jump ship to wait for greener days. It sure seems to be about the money from my perspective.

Here is the TOS from underground reptiles. Anybody thinking of doing business should read this closely and expect no leniency in any circumstances. I personally drop out when a business uses carrier delays(about as lame as you can get) to avoid responsibility for DOA. Cut and pasted straight from their site at http://undergroundreptiles.com/terms-and-conditions/

*Note that your failure to read our terms and conditions, whether intentional or accidental will under no circumstances be reason to consider them altered or void.

* Underground Reptiles ships during the week Monday-Thursday with the exception of holidays.

* Underground Reptiles has a no refund policy for all retail and wholesale orders. However we will offer store credit.

* In some instances, if a refund is granted, a 15% restocking fee may apply.

* Underground Reptiles does not guarantee live arrival on inverts or amphibians.

* Underground Reptiles will do their best to sex your animal using our experience but we cannot guarantee the sex on any animal unless otherwise specified.

* Underground Reptiles ships Fed-Ex priority overnight. We do not ship venomous snakes via Fed-Ex. Please do not ask. Mammals are shipped airport to airport via commercial airlines according to IATA regulations. Airline rates do apply. There is sometimes an additional fee for boxing and/or health certificate.

* The buyer must be present to receive the package on the first delivery attempt or all guarantees are void.

* Live and visibly healthy arrival is only guaranteed when shipping temperatures at both ends are between 35° – 90°F for home delivery and 25F° – 99F° for having the animal shipped to a Fed-Ex facility for pick up. We will still guarantee the animal if you opt to have the package held at a Fed-Ex facility for pick up however the animal must be picked up within 4 hours of arrival at the Fed-Ex facility or all guarantees are void. Otherwise, we can hold the animal(s) at our facility until temperatures are safe for shipping.

* We are not responsible for carrier delays or mishandling resulting in DOA* animals.

* All animals have a live and healthy arrival guarantee. We cannot offer any guarantee after the arrival.

* We cannot be held responsible for shipping charges incurred for upholding our guarantee; they are the responsibility of you, the buyer. We do not offer credits or refunds on shipping for replacement animals.

* If the animal(s) is dead or not visibly healthy upon arrival the customer must notify Underground Reptiles of the deceased or unhealthy animal immediately upon receiving the animal(s). The arrival time will be determined by the tracking information Fed-Ex provides online of the delivery. If the first attempt of delivery is missed then all live and visibly health arrival guarantees are null and void. An email with a photo attached of the actual animal must be emailed within one hour of arrival or all guarantees are null and void.

* We reserve the right to refuse sale to any buyer, for any reason. Sorry, no sales to minors. Proof of age may be required at our discretion.

* Underground Reptiles is not responsible for any veterinary expenses or costs incurred by the buyer for any animal. If you take any animal to a veterinarian, you do so entirely at your own expense.

* Photos and requests: The animals pictured on our web site may or may not be the actual animal available. The photos do represent the species, and the health and quality of the animals we ship. We can send more pictures of any animal you are interested in by contacting us.

* Photos, descriptions and care sheets posted on our web site are the exclusive property of Underground Reptiles, and may not be used or reused without our specific, written permission.

* In accordance with FDA regulations, turtles and tortoises less than 4 inches listed on our web site are offered expressly for educational, scientific or export purposes only. They are not sold for use as pets.

* You can contact us either by phone (954-428-8005) or email ( info@undergroundreptiles.com) If you have specific questions/requests, feel free to ask; we will respond accordingly. We can be reached Monday through Saturday from 11:00 AM – 8:00 PM.

* Please be aware of your own local wildlife laws and regulations. No shipments will be knowingly sent in violation of any state or federal laws. Please do not even ask.

* Underground Reptiles reserves the right to alter these terms and conditions at any time and in its sole discretion.

*DOA = Dead on Arrival

What I am about to type is for clarity and it is not intended for the purpose of offering defense.

He took issue with other parties saying he is "just" (as in only) in it for the money. That does not mean decisions cannot be based on the financial result while also being motivated by what is being labeled as "love" or whatever one wants to call the feeling of exuberant interest.

A lot of people who are simply poor at business performance will talk up the "love", too, as an excuse for that poor performance as a self-soothing type of self-delusion.

Operating for multiple simultaneous goals is not impossible (or even unlikely if strategies are sound along with a commitment to the execution of said strategies). A chef may love to cook and also probably wants to be compensated well for his cooking. If it was purely for the love of his art, he could offer a cost-effective down-scale-ingredient version at a soup kitchen. One can love what one does and still seek to obtain maximal value for the product of that very work that one loves.

Work versus love as an argument's basis is, at least some of the time, simply a false dichotomy.

Originally Posted by nickolasanastasiou

Operating for multiple simultaneous goals is not impossible (or even unlikely if strategies are sound along with a commitment to the execution of said strategies). A chef may love to cook and also probably wants to be compensated well for his cooking. If it was purely for the love of his art, he could offer a cost-effective down-scale-ingredient version at a soup kitchen. One can love what one does and still seek to obtain maximal value for the product of that very work that one loves.

Fair enough but I doubt your hypothetical chef would let the cost of ingredients dictate their menu. More than likely they'd work with what moves them and adjust prices accordingly. It just seems to me from the way UGR treats dissatisfied customers that their love for making money will always trump their love for reptiles and fellow enthusiasts. I guess that's what it takes to run a successful reptile business.

Originally Posted by Skinker

Fair enough but I doubt your hypothetical chef would let the cost of ingredients dictate their menu. More than likely they'd work with what moves them and adjust prices accordingly. It just seems to me from the way UGR treats dissatisfied customers that their love for making money will always trump their love for reptiles and fellow enthusiasts. I guess that's what it takes to run a successful reptile business.

I doubt he would hypothetically serve lobster in a soup kitchen scenario. Even if moving to slipper lobster or crayfish, the cost would be unjustifiable under typical circumstances. Therefore, the dish would be abandoned. Additionally, while I must admit my ignorance of soup kitchen dynamics, I was not aware there are prices to adjust as much as there are costs to manage when planning a menu for that context. If you were walking that analogy down an intermediate path to get the chef to a less expensive restaurant, then there is still a limit to equivalence when adjusting prices. There is a limit to price-cutting until certain ingredients cannot be afforded to still create the equivalent meal.

I cannot say what ratio of love for animals versus love for money exists for Rian, but I can go by his words and his words translate into not just one being at play. Whatever that ratio is, it is irrelevant to the thread's complaint.

I guess my point was missed since the default to using a false dichotomy (the trumping of one aspect by another being mandatory for success in your guess) just occurred regardless of them not being mutually exclusive principles.