Drew at Underground Reptiles stole 784$

Originally Posted by tybalt85

I think the real lesson here is that one should not be willing to give one's credit card number to someone who may or may not be be a low, dirty thief.

And stay away from doing business with underground reptiles!

Originally Posted by tybalt85

I am not a business owner in this industry, but in every other industry I've worked, the actions taken by the company would be considered criminally unacceptable. Charging money to try and weed out time wasters? You've got to be kidding me. Merchants and vendors don't have the luxury of offending potential customers and those who make a habit of doing so rarely stay in business for very long. What a vile, shameless, putrid way to do business. Disgusting.

I agree, although it sucks dealing with time wasters, people who cancel orders often, have second thoughts, or just the people who ask a million questions want pics of everything and never have any intention on placing an order it is part of every business. One can not just extract money for this inconvenience. Steps can be taken to cut down on "window shoppers" but not taking money and then charging a fee to get it back when no work was done..

i think its really rich that Underground doesn't like it when people don't follow through with orders they have placed. Underground does this to people they purchase from all the time! When will people in this hobby/industry stop giving these low lifes money. worst in the biz.

Or how about when I order something from them and they can not fill part or all of the order because of out of stocks. Do I get to charge a 15% fee because now the order has to be cancelled and I have to order from someone else.?

The one thing I've learned from this thread is that I will never buy anything from the OP or UG.

I have to say a breeder or wholesaler's TOS is the first place I look before choosing to do business with that company.

If I see a TOS with thirty bullet points and all of them are protecting the seller, I'm out. If I see a TOS and it lists a few reasonable protections afforded to mostly the buyer I'm good. A TOS is more a guarantee to my customers than it is a legal document to cover my rear end when things get touchy.

Let me rephrase that so all can understand why I would never buy from UG. Their TOS only exists to be used as a weapon to beat their customers over the head with. It affords them the ability to pad their pockets when no product and very little effort was expended. It's morally deplorable and ethically questionable at best.

Rian, you should have just issued a refund. The customer may not always be right, and sometimes they can be outright irritating but making them happy (especially when it costs you nothing to do it) is absolutely imperative.

First a seller, can refund someone money without any penalty with just about any credit card processor. If your processor doesn't do this then you need to get a new one. So it cost UG nothing to process and return the credit card payment.

Second UGR made posts that are deceitful and lacking in transparency. There is a very valid argument especially in the herp world for charging a non refundable deposit on animals that may be sought after. This should discourage clowns whom would reserve an animal with holding it from others for weeks or months then just return it for a full refund.

However when UGR posted they made almost no mention of this, instead they tried to BS everyone about credit card processing and database automation, lol even mentioning advertising. This smoke and mirrors clearly shows their true intentions have nothing to do with stopping bad customers from ruining things for everyone else and everything to do with holding on to your money and locking you in. If everything was so automated as UG claims then clearly reversing a return would be just as easy and automated. So while I can see a reason for charging a "restocking" fee which is really a down payment fee or opportunity cost fee in this case, there is no reasonable explanation given for not waiving that in the first 24 hours for all customers, or for waiving it in this specific situation. UG didn't mention if there was anything more to this transaction such as the seller purposely trying to bind up animals so UG or a competitor couldn't take them to a show or any other reasonable explanation for why they stuck so strictly to the TOS. Walmart says they can turn you down for a return for almost any reason in a TOS, so what they pretty much never turn anyone down. That is why BOI exists, because the TOS isn't reasonable to adhere to in all cases. The point of the TOS for any business should only ever be to protect you from scamming customers. So only 1 of 2 possibilities exist, UGR is running a bad business, or UG is lying about the real reasons they wouldn't refund the money in full. Either way it its a lack of trust I wouldn't deal with.

Everything about the seller is besides the point if someone doesn't want the seller flipping animals, make a BOI post about the seller if you purchased from them. Even UGR does not dispute the rough storyline here. It would however be nice if the OP would return and let us know where it stands, but its also possible the OP is scared that they will get nothing for their $700 if they do that.

Originally Posted by Killer Dragons

Underground shame on you for treating your customers the way you do!

You and your operation are not to be trusted. I know all about Rian Gittman because he screwed me for a few hundred $ when he was doing business as Pet Shop Reptiles. he gave me the run around for so long I just gave up on the refund he promised.


Let this be a warning to all unsuspecting buyers.

Called Rian Gittman Monday 10/13 to discuss my issue with him hoping to come to an agreement.we agreed on a settlement.

He stepped up and made things right with me.

Thank you Rian.

Originally Posted by slouprud

First a seller, can refund someone money without any penalty with just about any credit card processor. If your processor doesn't do this then you need to get a new one. So it cost UG nothing to process and return the credit card payment.

Second UGR made posts that are deceitful and lacking in transparency. There is a very valid argument especially in the herp world for charging a non refundable deposit on animals that may be sought after. This should discourage clowns whom would reserve an animal with holding it from others for weeks or months then just return it for a full refund.

However when UGR posted they made almost no mention of this, instead they tried to BS everyone about credit card processing and database automation, lol even mentioning advertising. This smoke and mirrors clearly shows their true intentions have nothing to do with stopping bad customers from ruining things for everyone else and everything to do with holding on to your money and locking you in. If everything was so automated as UG claims then clearly reversing a return would be just as easy and automated. So while I can see a reason for charging a "restocking" fee which is really a down payment fee or opportunity cost fee in this case, there is no reasonable explanation given for not waiving that in the first 24 hours for all customers, or for waiving it in this specific situation. UG didn't mention if there was anything more to this transaction such as the seller purposely trying to bind up animals so UG or a competitor couldn't take them to a show or any other reasonable explanation for why they stuck so strictly to the TOS. Walmart says they can turn you down for a return for almost any reason in a TOS, so what they pretty much never turn anyone down. That is why BOI exists, because the TOS isn't reasonable to adhere to in all cases. The point of the TOS for any business should only ever be to protect you from scamming customers. So only 1 of 2 possibilities exist, UGR is running a bad business, or UG is lying about the real reasons they wouldn't refund the money in full. Either way it its a lack of trust I wouldn't deal with.

Everything about the seller is besides the point if someone doesn't want the seller flipping animals, make a BOI post about the seller if you purchased from them. Even UGR does not dispute the rough storyline here. It would however be nice if the OP would return and let us know where it stands, but its also possible the OP is scared that they will get nothing for their $700 if they do that.

Excellent post regarding TOS and when to implement them..

The issue with UG is they really behind the scenes do not trust anyone, there customers or there employees. That is why the owner does not give even his General Manager Ryan B any power to make any executive decisions.
years ago, They told me many times that all customers lie, and will attempt to get away with anything if you let them.. Although I agree it is good to be cautious they really look down on there customers and this is one of the reasons it is so hard to get fair compensation when something goes ary. They just do not believe anyone.