DWARF Leopard Geckos???

I started this thread, and unless anyone posts after this, I will end it! This has been an extremely dynamic thread, and practically every post has had some real validity. I originally meant this to be about, "Is it ethical to breed dwarf geckos? Why or why not?"

I will concede my hypocritical and false notion that I have been trying to "improve" the Leopard Gecko species in captivity by not inbreeding, and culling kinked tails, eyelid defects, and savage dispositions in my blizzards. It was arrogant of me to believe that responsible breeding means to glean the more desireable attributes (both physical and aesthetic) of my geckos and incorporate them into my colonies. I have been misguided into believing that it is unethical to knowingly breed unwanted characteristics such as dwarfism, kinked tails, and other genetic defects.

My bad.

. . .I would think that Marcia just punched a gaping shot-gun blast through some of our guts.

Crap - and with me to just about ready to unveil my latest leo morph- the

CRABNOK Dwarf Leopard Gecko

Crabby dispositioned
No-Eyelid
kinked tailed
dwarf

Dang Ethical boundaries.

OMG, Monte, I just realized. I AM A CRABNOK.

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Captive living is alot different than wild living...... And calm temperments would go hand in hand with the color morphs....

I really doubt it. When do you ever see calm temperaments being a consideration when the breeders decide who they're going to hold back for the next season?

most breeders only pick the best looking and healthiest animals to breed....I do not know a breeder that doesnt....

Actually, I know quite a few breeders who don't pick the best looking or the healthiest. But on a different tangent, how do we really know for sure if the best-looking truly is healthy? Just because it's eating and pooping fine? How do we know that it isn't carrying any genetic health problems that aren't immediately obvious such as heart defects or susceptibility to cancer? How can you possibly insist that you are helping the species if you only look at the defects that make themselves immediately obvious? I think we all understand the ramifications of letting flawed recessive traits spread in a population, so can anyone really be confident that he or she is helping the species?

Plus there is no way to breed for stronger immune systems...... I would also like to see where the proof is that captive leos have compromised immune systems to begin with....

In my previous post, I was trying to say that stronger immune systems are what we SHOULD be breeding for if our objective were to improve the species in captivity. The feasibility of breeding for stronger immune systems is beside the point. But since you brought it up, no I don't think there is a way to improve the species in captivity for the simple reason that we have removed these animals from the very forces that determine which are most fit to survive. Stina already touched on this before, but I'll say it again because anyone with basic scientific reasoning should be able to understand this. No matter how we try to justify our breeding ethics or how hard we try to cull the weak from the species, we are letting both weak and strong propogate, and that in itself precludes any improvement to the species.

Your second point about captive leos having compromised immune systems is irrelevent because again, that is not my point. I think we're already creating more health issues than we are aware of. We are over-feeding our leos due to the misconception that the fatter they are the healthier and/or they aren't capable of over-eating. Tell me of an animal that does not run into health problems when obese, that does not have problems giving birth/laying eggs, that does not die prematurely, or does not have problems performing basic metabolic functions? When a leo dies at 20 years old, we can all think that he died of old age--but how do we know for sure that he didn't suffer heart failure due to being fed 20 mealworms everyday? How do we know if leos should really be living over 30 years?

Originally Posted by Golden Gate Geckos

I will concede my hypocritical and false notion that I have been trying to "improve" the Leopard Gecko species in captivity by not inbreeding, and culling kinked tails, eyelid defects, and savage dispositions in my blizzards....

Marcia, you unethical FIEND! Previously, I had planned to purchase one or more of your freakishly straight-tailed patternless and albinos for my collection, but now....

Now I'm sure I want to buy from you. Thank you, thank you, for improving at least two of the leopard gecko morphs which are my favorites.

Laura

Wow, those are excellent points Olivia, and you're right. No one can be certain they are actually improving the species. Even if only the healthiest looking geckos are being bred together, other hidden problems could be being encouraged. No doubt most reputable breeders mean well, however I agree that to say one is improving the species is probably over-doing it a little.

Originally Posted by JSdragon

No one can be certain they are actually improving the species.

That is true. However, some good common sense will tell us when a defect will definitely NOT improve the species.

And, Olivia, guess what, I breed for personality! Not many breeders do that, tho, you are right.

Your right!

Im thinking about cutting mine open and looking around for undisirebale traits....just to make sure there ok!


HOME OF THE STUBTAILED-DWARF GECKO
Now two for $9.95 shipped

overton
youre trying to corner the market like monte did with the stripes...................

and savage dispositions in my blizzards.

Oh, plsease, they're just nervous!