In need of opinions...

You know, perhaps this should be the beginning of a new thread, but the inbreeding of dragons, due to limited gene pool, seems to be mounting to a serious problem. Any of you that frequent the KS forum will remember when Bojack had twin dragons, you will prbably also remember when I hatched Biped, and now the Vandivers have siamese twins. I have heard of more deformities more often in the last year. Could we have reached a sort of event horizon where the genetics begin to seriously break down? It seems to me that there is no real operable solution as the gene pool is so limited that we cannot really introduce any fresh genetics.

Well, I could go on and on about the genetics/inbreeding thing.

Since it doesnt look like we are going to be able to get much new blood anytime soon (although I believe that there have been several dragons smuggled in since the originals) I believe that people should just strive to get dragons from as many different sources and bloodlines as possible. And that people should be aware that buying from 2 different people does not assure you 2 different bloodlines. Therefore, try to trace genetics, and to be doubly safe--dont breed any 2 dragons that look alike. Breed your reds to yellows, your whites to oranges...etc etc...and look for different patterns too. I'm starting to see a bunch of look alikes in the high colored dragon market--not only do they all have similar color (red/orange/sandfire), but they have nearly identical markings too--from several different breeders.

Of course this is never going to fly because it seems more breeders are interested in producing as high color as possible at whatever expense--everyone is still going to breed their reds to their reds to make more red, oranges to oranges, etc etc...
And I do believe this is at the expense of health, longevity, immunity, etc etc... I do think it will blow up in our faces someday. I know that the dragons I got in the early and even late 90s are a heck of a lot hardier than the ones I get today. I even see a difference from last year to this year! Actually, a big difference....hmmm...

As for German Giants, I was told that they were imported later (I'll have to double check on the exact year)--but there is some controversy as to who actually got them from Europe or if it was a couple different people. Pete Weis is usually credited with bringing them into the states, but I know people that refute that strongly--typical of the reptile world it seems : )
I am trying to mix in a little German everywhere I can. Although, I do think some of the Germans have been inbred a lot too. I see color x Germans as the way to go, but that is just me.

Back to the worms...I wonder if their is some chance that they are being fed meat products???

How do people feel about the anti-coccidial chicken starter for crickets to help keep coccidia away--in addition to gutload/fruits and veggies or whatever else....?

The past two years it seems parasite levels are a lot higher in dragons--I'm under the impression we need to start treating them like dogs and cats--deworm them on a regular schedule and treat any new animal acquired. I've adopted using that parazap once per month on all young dragons as a preventative.

dana

one more thing in response to Richard's post...I think deformities do happen--it is natural--so who knows. But, I too wonder about the stats--how much have they increased over the years?

Things like lizards born missing limbs are not an uncommon thing. I have that happen often (6x'S a year) but it's alway in the summer when when incubation temps are getting high. I tend to think it's more of an incubation thing than genetic drift.

Last year I had a clutch of Vieleds (36) where half the (18) eggs hatched as twins most of them made it. These we from a WC female I'd had for almost 2 years. She never had twins befor nor has she since.

Is Giardia the "g" one folks are thinking of? I've had that show up in occasional fecal samples but it didn't freak me out too very much because that's a common waterborne critter here in PA and sometimes shows up in public drinking water, particularly the Scranton and Poconos areas.

We don't even treat it here unless it's symptomatic because it runs its course and gets fought off pretty easily. If symptomatic Baytril kicks it nicely in beardies. I've never had to treat one of my own for it, just let it work through. Repeat fecals in 2 weeks usually don't show any left. It can get nasty though if the beardie does get diarrhea and the immune system is really down.

I find the genetics stuff very interesting indeed. If legends are true, all the German Giants are descended from that one prolific female named Lucy, yet they seem to show less inbreeding problems than the sandfires or leucistics. Due to more careful outcrossing, I suppose? The GG size and hardiness seem to breed truer than high coloreds due so line breeding isn't seen as so necessary to establish a bloodline?

Boy, how I wish Australia would let us bring over a hundred dragons to try and freshen up our bloodlines, but I understand their stance. They have some of the most fascinating creatures in the world and they want to keep them around for future generations. I wish the folks in the US took the status of reptiles in the wild so seriously.

eyespy

Yes, thank you, that is the name i was looking for that Myst had.

She had been fine, seemed healthy and eating well, then boom, all of a sudden she looked really ill and then the prolapse.

I have two adult GG, neither have really given us any problem, at age two, one has never been to the Vet but his first checkup and the other once for a slight cough I heard and she had a mild URI that was knocked out in a few days, both always have clear fecals.

I have a little sandfire right now, age 6 months that I call my old man, he has what they call false gout. His hands look like an old mans with arthritis. He is under the same UVB heat as the others and eats the same greens/veggies and crickets. Our Vets thinks it is from inbreeding, we have had x-rays, blood tests and he's on meds now that are helping. He has always ate well, one of our better eaters, and colors are beautiful...... sad.. hopefully the meds can undo some of the damage to his little fingers/toes

I think people are unaware of the number of bearded dragons produced and sold. We're a small time breeder and quite a number of dragons went out our doors this year. The shear numbers (for example we have 4 pet stores in our small/med town. Cut that in half. So 2 stores on average per city/town. Each has 4 or 5 dragons for sale. Times this by every city/town in the US. Now you haven't even touched on shows or online sales.) mean that the limited gene pool is going to get taxed without fresh imports. Now factor in the color limiting issues.

GG's are not as desired by "joe blow public" and therefore not produced in the high numbers. Therefore you don't have near the inbreeding that you have with inland's.

Forward looking breeders will be "taking a year off" with some of their animals and breeding with "normals" or GG's to re-introduce hardiness into their lines. Similar to how farmers rotate fields to improve quality of crops.

Oh, wait did I suggest a plan with more than 12 months to fruitation??!! Oh forget that, does anyone have any adult female breeders for sale ??

(just joking on the last paragraph, that just seems to be the question of the month from customers).

This will get a rise out of someone. I hear lots of people going on about BD inbreeding genetics ect. To be honest with you none of us really knows about the genetic diversity of the captive population.

To my knowlege I have never heard of anyone that did a genetic study on bearded dragons. Maybe there like Cheetahs and there all related!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know................

Alot of people think clutch size/hatch rate is a reflection of the over genetic-health of your colony. Everyone seem to forget that as-few-as 3or4 years ago bearded were eather NORMALS or REDxGOLDS. The normals produced (for Me) 30-40 eggs per clutch. The REDxGolds (for me) produced 18-24 eggs per clutch.
I see a direct correlation between the desire to produce color where we breed more and more color into our normal dragons.

Chad, did you see Svee's thread on beardies in Australia?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...&threadid=9169

I think the observations of Svee and other Australian herpers regarding America's shallow gene pool are pretty on target. I know the University of Pennsylvania vets give a "limited lifespan" of 15 years for beardies that have

1) good genetics
2) reduced animal protein diets once they reach adulthood
3) never been kept on sand (whole other can of worms there!).

They see most beardies as having a realistic lifespan of about 8 years because it's a rare beardie that meets all of those conditions.

Svee's post more than doubled that! Sure, it's not a scientific study but I lurk in the Australianherps newsgroups and a lot of other folks make similar observations about morph-crazy Yanks who are starting with a limited number of dragons in the gene pool to begin with.

I saw this quote posted recently:

The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard -- Steven Wright

LOL, I think that says a lot.