In need of opinions...

It was, in fact, my post that may have sounded like an implication, and in retrospect, was not as well thought out as it should have been. I was trying to point out the growing number of oddities in the Beareded population here in the states. I'm sorry if it seemed to imply that I thought the Vandivers were inbreeding, as I do not think so.

It was more of a statement on the general shallowness of the bearded genepool in this country.

Shallow is correct, even with the biggest numbers I have heard, after a few generations, it would be almost impossible for cousins not to be being breed to each other outside of Austrailia. Even getting them from many locations in the US or Europe, they would have to be related, unless someone has smuggled out more.

I think what your trying to say, or I am hearing is that as more generations share the same ancestry without any trace of unrelated blood, more problems are surfacing. When that is combined with breeding daughter to father or siblings to get the screaming colors, its a potential for disaster I have one GG female that is a Europe/US cross, another that is a male GG breed by closely traced lines going back several generation. Both are wonderfully heathly and never had a problem, 600+ grams and stocky and longer than average, gold colors, and seem far more intelligent than the beautiful red sandfire I have or the other 8 normals/high colors.

The Sandfire has a host of problems, is small but eats well and has a problem processing calcium. He does not have MBD, we've had him x-rayed and blood panels, but the calcium settles in the joints of his hands, similar to gout, but with calcium instead of Uric acids. Our Vets thinks it is caused by inbreeding. Of the ones I have, all from different locations and breeders, only two females would I even think about breeding and only with one of the males we have.... the others are and will be pampered pets, as their genes should not continue, they are not my idea of strong, healthy lines and even though beautiful and would produce colorful babies, its not worth it to me or them.

Too many people are breeding just because they have a male and female, with no background history or concern for the future health of the offspring, I commend breeders that are closely watching those lines and trying to diversify as much as possible. I also think with the proven history of health of the GG line, crossing this into normals is a good move, but what do we do when that one too is exhausted?

Tom, Relax. This was just a discussion on bearded dragon breeding overall and not an attack on anyone.

I agree that the increase in "oddities" is a sign that the genetic pool is not deep enough.

I personally feel that the dragon market is going to bottom out this year and maybe that will slow down the rapid decline in health. A "newbie" grabbing two dragons from the same breeder to produce babies which are weaker than the previous generation does little to rectify the existing situation. If there is not a "quick buck" to be made this won't continue to happen (as much) and we can buttress up our gene pool by outcrossing with "normals" and the GG lines.

What's going on with the crypto thing ? any new news?

chad

Sorry, Chad, I was so busy running off to my little football party that I forgot to answer that one.

I've walked away in disgust from trying to convince the CDC and the FWS that there are significant concerns. Fish and Wildlife says that unless the CDC rules there is a danger to people they have no jurisdiction to investigate and certainly no power to block potentially ill animals from entering the country. I haven't been able to get any further on that issue.

CDC wants good samples for molecular testing, but they will only test fecals from animals that have already been diagnosed with crypto and there is also a human illness suspected. Otherwise they cannot work with samples from animals. It's outside their jurisdiction.

I only knew of one such case, and those animals have been dead for over 6 months. Slides were never saved, let alone preserved properly. In the case of the dead animals, they were already dead for 2-3 weeks when the child got sick, so serology and ELISA immunoassay were done on the cadavers rather than fecal testing and those are not admissible tests per CDC criteria. The CDC sent me a form letter via email from a Mary Shepherd stating it appears to be an isolated case and is an issue for local health officials and/or the state vet.

I' m aware of 9 other cases of dragons from the same mass breeder that have crypto but no human has gotten so much as a bellyache. There are plenty of other dragons that just have a diagnosis of coccidia and when I try to find out what type, cannot get any further answer, just "we don't isolate the type of coccidia, just diagnose coccidia and give Albon." So I don't have any samples that meet the criteria for testing.

It seems I'm stuck. I'll continue to warn people that there is a slight potential for zoonotic transmission of crypto just like there is with salmonella and advise strict hygiene precations. I've always been an advocate for a 90 day quarantine with new animals and now there's even more reason to recommend that. Other than that I'm not sure that this one little person is going to get much more done.

GENETIC CAN O WORMS
eye spy
Q}To be honest with you none of us really knows about the genetic diversity of the captive population. To my knowlege I have never heard of anyone that did a genetic study on bearded dragons.

i cant ignore that eye! im sure if you looked to the country of their origin youll find some pretty good info written over the last few decades..tho i did read {MK again!} that we only have ONE reputable author..named Eric Worrell..who wrote a book in the 60s. he opened the Gosford Reptile Park..and was an excellent man, but not our best author. i suggest always..the Melbourne University Herpetology Departmant Database. or the MacQuarie University.
or book stores! also for visual as well. try steve parish ..he gives information youd really have to search around for and excellent photographs.

Q}Everyone seem to forget that as-few-as 3or4 years ago bearded were eather NORMALS or REDxGOLDS. The normals produced (for Me) 30-40 eggs per clutch. The REDxGolds (for me) produced 18-24 eggs per clutch.
I see a direct correlation between the desire to produce color where we breed more and more color into our normal dragons.

a normal yield here for every bearded species i know of is 30 eggs.
yes..it must be related..as is the size and life span...plus disease and weaknesses.

now, the vitticeps thing... they are the only Pogona that will 'lose colour' this is enhanced by inbreeding..which is what the US has been forced into with such a small population as the motherlode. theyre not as easy to get as easterns..therefore theres not been a lot of breeding with them. this is also why you have morphed commercially and we dont. and they also have a wider range of phasing than the other species of similar size Pogona barbatas.. they can go from pale pale grey {with no sign of ochre} to black as pitch. the minor species havent been mentioned in anything ive read.
im pretty sure i just repeated myself from another post... but thats not plagiarism! so everythings ok. Svee

Q}And to the best of our knowledge no cousins have bred. We have gotten a lot of bearded dragons from Bob Mailoux (The Sandfire Dragon Ranch), sandfires, sandfire crosses and pastels. We have bought from him in three different years.
tom.... ive looked at Bob Mailloux and his breeding practises and i class him as the top breeder in the states.. hes made excellent progress. thats a great thing. and you do well to not inbreed. really the gene pool is 'babyend' shallow.
i do believe our country should release more to the US for breeding purposes.

also, ive seen twins from CBs. its rare but not classed as a deformity or abnormal. any species that can produce twins has the risk of siamese occuring. Svee

Pennebaker,
thanks so much for your post. ive been having all my breeding questions answered. the whole thing has almost been a 'serendipity' ... finding these pretty dragons, that were so colourful compared to ours - when i already thought that beardeds were a fascinating species. and then finding they can be bred naturally to achieve that. its nice to take in your info and .. well it all computes.

I still do think that there have been illegal beardies brought in. so I am sure people have smuggled dragons. I even had a customer talk to me about having friends in the airline business and what would I pay for a WC beardie--no joke. I'm sure someone took him up on the offer. And I'm sure it is not the first time

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Oh no!
it would be nice to think that people wouldnt be tempted seeing all these little $ signs running round in the form of wild beardeds {+ others} but thats unlikely, humans are involved here! if only they were ending up in the right hands. are they taken to a zoo or facility if theyre siezed? the more seizures the better if thats the case.

The most extensive genetic studies have really been done by breeders. I think there are quite a number of genes that have been isolated by breeders.

i agree.
Svee.

I am a Pog

I am a Pog

I am a Pog

i have made changes on the pog problem page.

Svee.