Mike Matson (Mike's Phat Frogs) sold me a WC snake as CB

Originally Posted by SynPlus

Apologies, I completely missed the follow up necropsy. It does look like you did a follow up necropsy with another vet. Did they tell if you the hemorrhaging was due to the previous procedure?

Hi there. I indeed had the necropsy done at a different vet, in order to rule out a possible conflict of interest. The hemorrhaging was due to parasites, not the previous vet's procedure.

If anyone's interested in following the Skittles story, you can easily find it via my user name on either reddit, or I took a few pics on Instagram. From the very beginning I've always said she was CB, because that's what Mike told me.

I'm not a breeder and I'm not a seller, I just wanted a healthy pet.

Hmm I can see where the confusion with the term 'farmed' may be, but no way would there be confusion with the question 'Are these wild caught or captive bred?'

Originally Posted by Marie84

Hmm I can see where the confusion with the term 'farmed' may be, but no way would there be confusion with the question 'Are these wild caught or captive bred?'

I guess in that aspect it's just he-said-she-said at that point.

That being said, I am just curious at this point why emails weren't sent out before the hognose had died, especially once the vet had verified it. Only after the hognose had died was any contact with Mike initiated.

Personally, the second I found out it was wild caught IF I was originally told otherwise, if I were in her position according to what she has told us so far, I would have been emailing Mike to figure something out.

Waiting until after the snake died just seems a little off. This is just my opinion, I am willing to read all the facts, don't get me wrong.

Originally Posted by SynPlus

especially once the vet had verified it

verified it, meaning that it was wild caught. Sorry, I really should proof read and actually read more tonight. It's late.

Originally Posted by SynPlus

Personally, the second I found out it was wild caught IF I was originally told otherwise, if I were in her position according to what she has told us so far, I would have been emailing Mike to figure something out.

Waiting until after the snake died just seems a little off. This is just my opinion, I am willing to read all the facts, don't get me wrong.

Yeah, hoping we hear his side too.

Originally Posted by Marie84

Yeah, hoping we hear his side too.

You won't, he has been banned from posting on Fauna, he can be a little hot headed from what I've read. That being said, when I made a purchase with him, and while I was sitting at a booth next to his, he was very honest and up front while I was listening to him talk to attendees at Repticon.

Anyway, he has posted on his Facebook page that he is very firm that he said they were not CB but farmed/wild caught, posting the same screenshot that he has shared with Jing that I posted as well in my first post on this thread.

While I was at the show I do distinctly remember him telling an attendee that the Madagascar Hognose he was looking at was wild caught. When I purchased two tokay geckos from him during that show, he told me right away they were wild caught. I know, he-said-she-said.

Jing, do you have any receipts that say wild caught or captive bred?

Too many vendors use the term "farmed" rather than just stating that an animal is an import (WC). There are some legitimate farms in Indonesia for different species of snakes. One is cleaner than the others. Regardless, a true farmed animal will be started on lizards or similar prey items if they will not start on mice. One farm breed mice, or they did in the past. Water supply may introduce "protists". So, clear of helminths does not mean free of potential pathogens such as Entamoeba invadens, giardia, etc. Simply, people should stop using the term farmed unless there is proof that an animal was hatched on a "farm". No proof, no farm. By farmed I mean, adult animals bred at the facility. Not collected eggs from a gravid female that are hatched....regarding the treatment at 2 week intervals, I suspect what was administered was fenbendazole. Effective against many nematodes, but not against filarial nematodes. Ivermectin is the drug of choice for filarial nematodes. Their death is likely the death of the snake. It seem like nematodes that are extra-intestinal are not affected by fenbendazole. I lost a Manokwari green tree python that was "farmed" to mesenteric nematodes. Possibly a type of strongyle that inhabits the mesentery. Took four years to manifest. A ticking time bomb. The Manokwari was not farmed. He was a large golden juvenile when I got him. Clearly wild caught. I would get back on the horse if I were you, but buy from a breeder that produced an animal. I would recommend a Jungle Carpet Python. There are some beautiful ones being produced these days. Better than ever.

Sorry all, had hit quick reply. Giant run on sentence pretty much. I will try again....

Too many vendors use the term "farmed" rather than just stating that an animal is an import (WC).

There are some legitimate farms in Indonesia for different species of snakes. One is cleaner than the others. I have no idea about African region animals, I do not keep them. Regardless, a true farmed animal will be started on lizards or similar prey items if they will not start on mice. If and only if the "farm" raises rodents.

One farm in Indo breeds mice, or they did in the past. Water supply may introduce "protists". So, clear of helminths does not mean free of potential pathogens such as Entamoeba invadens, giardia, etc. I have been told this by someone that owns a farm...and it is common sense. I suspected that this occurs before being told.

People should stop using the term farmed unless there is proof that an animal was hatched on a "farm". No proof, no farm. By farmed I mean, adult animals bred at the facility. Not collected eggs from a gravid female that are hatched and thrown lizards. Scars on an animal? Hmmmm. Farmed?

Regarding the treatment at 2 week intervals, I suspect what was administered was fenbendazole. Effective against many nematodes, but not against filarial nematodes. Ivermectin is the drug of choice for filarial nematodes. If hitting filarial nematodes with Ivermectin, their death is likely the death of the snake.
I have read and heard that fenbendazole has a wide safety margin. I am not a fan of putting medications into prey items. Sloppy in some cases.

It seems like nematodes that are extra-intestinal are not affected by fenbendazole. I lost a Manokwari green tree python that was sold to me as "farmed", to mesenteric nematodes. Possibly a type of strongyle that inhabits the mesentery. Took four years to manifest. A ticking time bomb. The Manokwari was definitely not farmed. He was a large golden juvenile when I got him. Clearly wild caught. I de-wormed him at the time, for anything that could be killed.

I would get back on the horse if I were you, but buy from a reputable breeder that produces their animals. I would recommend a Jungle Carpet Python. There are some beautiful ones being produced these days. Better than ever. Or Antaresia pythons....whatever floats your boat.

Originally Posted by SynPlus

I guess in that aspect it's just he-said-she-said at that point.

That being said, I am just curious at this point why emails weren't sent out before the hognose had died, especially once the vet had verified it. Only after the hognose had died was any contact with Mike initiated.

Personally, the second I found out it was wild caught IF I was originally told otherwise, if I were in her position according to what she has told us so far, I would have been emailing Mike to figure something out.

Waiting until after the snake died just seems a little off. This is just my opinion, I am willing to read all the facts, don't get me wrong.

I read through the entire 70 page thread about the frogs. His posts there made me not want to contact him at all. The only reason I emailed him is because the vet tech at the necropsy clinic suggested that I ask for a refund of the snake's price. But it only confirmed that he actually did lie to me.