Het Pied Markers???

I have seen lots of ads stating "showing all het pied markers". What are the het pied markers? I cant seem to find anywhere this is showed or explained on any website. Please tell me what some of these markers are and any pictures would be appreciated. Also are any of these proven or just speculation?

hey bill,

the only thing i have heard about the markers is that it is near the tail , like a ring of white sor someting , i dont think thee is anything definite about it , but i heard it proves out more times than not . If you have a het without a marker it can still be a het , like i said i dont know too much about the trait.

See ya

Derek Federico

I think it's some sort of speculation... Until I see someone buy a a trio, or 1.3 group of 50% poss het pieds, all with the "genetic markers", and produce pieds out of every clutch, and do it with different males, then either that person is EXTREMELY lucky, or there is something to it...
I think it was a gimic based on seeing a ringer come out of a pied clutch.

the indicator that is commonly referrred to as the "het pied marker" is a white belly with striping that goes along the belly toward the tail, usually on both sides. While it is not a guarantee, when it is found in a group of het, or possible het, pieds, there seems (according to those that know) to be some correlation with this marker. This trait, when not found in a pied (or het) breeding, should probably not be interpretted as being anything special. here is a link with pics from one of several threads on the subject here.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...09&postcount=8

you might also want to take a look at nextworld's Guide to the Morphs:
http://www.nextworldexotics.com/hghpm.htm

The so called het pied markers are what Harald described, not a ringer.
The problem is it hasn't been priven even though it's been speculated on for some time.
I think it began initially with the speculation by a few that there must be some way to tell the het pieds in a possible het clutch because of Ralph Davis' apparent amazing luck in proving out possible hets.
Then someone noticed these "markers".

The problem is there are many many known hets that do not have these markings and many specimens that do have the markings that are not het. Another problem lies in the fact that the same markings are found in individuals with no connection to a pied line.
IF you could take all possible het pieds with this marking and they proved out then it would mean something. But to say it merely increases your chances of that animal being het is highly subjective and smacks of a ploy to make sales.
It's either a marker for the gene or it's not, you just can't say the ones with these markers have a higher probability of being het. Define higher probability and what data quantifies that statement? The sheer number of breeding tests required to make such a statement haven't been performed, and every possible het with the markers that turns out not to be het makes it that much harder to make the claim at all.

In my opinion, if it was indeed a marker for a het individual then every hatchling from a pied to normal breeding should display those markings. At the very least any het from a bloodline known to demonstrate the markings should also display them.
It's a real convenient rumor though. You see a ton of fresh import hatchlings every year with these markers and various dealers attempting to capitalize on it.
As far as I'm concerned I don't think the markings have anything to do with the presence of the pied gene.

IMHO it's a very inconvenient rumor. It totally messed up the marketing of possible hets. There is now a demand difference for possible hets with the ringer belly vs. ones without. It has the oft-pointed out problem that not all hets have it and some assumed non-hets have it. There is the chance that some are selling random imports with the ringer belly as possible hets. It's very very messy and I'm sure many wish it had never come out in public or would somehow just go away now.

We don't get to pick how genetics work. We only get to decide if we are going to try to figure it out, messy or not.

I've read from reliable sources that 70-80% of het pieds have this ringer belly (wide, near or all 3 belly scales white belly with thick dark lines at the edges, particularly in the last 3rd of the snake). I've also heard that breeders like Ralph Davis also use other signs. Even the biggest detractors of the ringer belly as a het pied sign (one guy claims 50% of imports have it) indicate there may well be signs to help identify het pieds, they just don't tell us what they are.

I believe that the high reported rates of ringer bellies in het pieds, the low rates I've seen in imports (no where near 50%), and even reports from smaller het pied producers that 100% of their hets have it all support the high likelihood that there is some sort of link between being het pied and having a ringer belly. It is not a perfect link where all het pieds always have it and no non-het pied ever has it but I think it's enough of a link to be useful when picking through known possible het pieds.

As far as the nature of the ringer belly, I'm no longer sure "marker" is a good term. It was pointed out to me that in genetics "marker" indicates a 2nd visible gene linked to the gene that you can't see. I actually believe that it may be the single pied gene it's self, causing ringer bellies in many het pieds. In a pied the white comes up from the belly onto the back and often leaves two black lines. In the ringer belly it's like the white was only able to push to the edges of the belly but not up onto the back. Perhaps the same mechanism that varies the amount of white up on the back from one homozygous pied to another varies the amount of white ringer belly on heterozygous pieds allowing for some to show good ringer bellies and some not.

I guarantee I wont buy any just because they have the "markers". It sound like until someone actually needs to proves this theory, that is all it is, is a theory.

Certainly it's a theory and I would not recommend buying "hets" from unreliable sources based on having the ringer belly or not buying 100% hets from reliable sources based on not having the ringer belly. Where it might be useful is deciding which possible hets to buy or raise up.

Technically it's still a theory that the homozygous mojave is a white snake until several of the suspected homozygous mojave's are bred to a bunch of normals and produce only mojave's to confirm what they are. However, as soon as RDR produced a white snake from lesser X phantom some of us had a theory that the similar looking mojave might be compatible and produce a white snake. Some theories will eventually prove wrong and some right, by weighing the theories along the way you might help your desired production or avoid mistakes.

I have a 100% het pair from Bob Clark....and neither have these "markers".

Originally Posted by Bill & Amy

I guarantee I wont buy any just because they have the "markers". It sound like until someone actually needs to proves this theory, that is all it is, is a theory.

Well you wouldn't just want to buy snakes with that pattern based on that alone hoping to get pieds, but if you're looking at a clutch of possible hets and cannot afford to buy them all, if some have the "markers" then it won't hurt to pick those based on that.
If it turns out there's something to it then you might increase your chances of picking the right ones and if there's nothing to it then you haven't decreased your chances either since the whole clutch has the same chance being het anyway.

IMHO it's a very inconvenient rumor. It totally messed up the marketing of possible hets.

I only said that sarcastically in reference to the unscrupulous dealers who attempt to capitalize on the marker theory on their imports.
Yes it is unfortunate for many breeders. Someone like me might have trouble selling possible hets I produce that do not have the ringer belly because so many people think that's practically the equivalent of a sure thing and will only buy possibles that have it.