Ty park/ ty lizards FL

Originally Posted by bcr229

I brought up this exact point a while ago but no one ever answered the question - in the tegu world is a critter's lineage/provenance important or not?

And, not to put too find a point on it, but I will not accept critters into my collection if they came from certain sources even with good provenance.

Depends on the person. When I was into leopard geckos, there was a common push from community members that certain bigger-name breeders had special quality differences relative to small-time, three-geckos-on-the-dresser-in-one's-bedroom breeders/keepers. I did not find that message to be the case most of the time, but sometimes bigger names had enough animals to drive a distinct enough line (which is really a subdivision of a subdivision in the bigger picture) to make me want to incorporate such a line into my collection for either a more directed purpose, to be able to offer that lineage, or to provide some sort of diversity (which is often an overblown and less than impressive thing in reality when dealing with some gene pools or even some organisms) to a project's components.

When I was starting out with partnered albino blue tegu work (which was really not that long ago; a few years), I was perfectly fine getting things from an alternative line (which seems every bit as nice and robust) and using more "promoted name-driven" lines (of which one of those lines is from Taesoon's stock) for outcrossing or het-making as part of the program.

Likewise on acceptance criteria. I, too, have a list of sources I refuse to incorporate into my projects (with multiple potential reasons; some reasons being tangible and others intangible).

Originally Posted by KelcifersDragons

Ty calls his t+ albinos purples when the purple tegu is a blue red hybrid. That's where some confusion came in.

Marketing-driven confusion. Because people slap names on stuff so easily, this results. There are purple albinos, purples, purple tiger this-and-thats, and so on. People use purple to mean different things and that screws it up. Heck, some people tack a word onto blue that implies a quality difference and actually also includes an implied reference to a hybrid component. Then someone gets lazy and stops mentioning the hybrid component and some person is buying something he/she thinks is something else based on the naming. Anyone who knows me knows I like a lot of pure stuff AND a lot of well-defined hybrid stuff, but maintenance of the label when dealing with matters of hybrids is critically important for honest representation. Unfortunately, that breaks down with some people. Not all. Not most. Some. "T+" and "T-" are also severely abused by reptile people, most of whom have done no testing for tyrosinase activity and do not even know what that really means anyway. "Oh, it is a little darker overall? Oh, that one over there has more vibrant color or something different about its eyes? Well, we will call that T+ because...reasons." As a group, we do a disservice to ourselves with that junk.

To my knowledge, the "purples" by Ty are an albino/amel blue marketing name for the darker-toned ones. It has been suggested that the lines are not different and it is individual variability within the same genetic defect. I do not know that to be fact, but all one needs is a test breeding to figure that out. I suspect that has already been performed and the appeal of the purples to some will fade and the pricing will fall (and this latter part has been happening recently...curious) in response. This may be due to a change in demand or may be strategic action by sellers. The backlash of having your customers know you charged them around twice as much for the same morph with a different level of expression is going to be much worse than if you put a smaller premium on those animals ($2500 to $3000 does not sting nearly as much as $2500 to $5000 and a person dropping $2500 can more easily afford the "pain" of an extra $500 compared to the "pain" of an extra $2500). ESPECIALLY if the breeders know there is or might not be a genetic difference. There are several other smaller-scale breeders who use the same label in the same way. Yet other breeders also use "purple" labeling for tegus to mean hybrid types. Since selling communities like to fragment with individuals trying to promote their offerings as different and sellers apparently find themselves clever with stupid names (including renaming things that already have an established label), an unfamiliar person can be confused and make a decision he/she is not intending to make.

Originally Posted by FresnoTortoise

Ed, isn't innocent until prove guilty in a court of law also part of law?

With respect to the administration of criminal punishments there is a presumption of innocence under the law but that does not guarantee freedom from social punishments for transgressions which can range from boycotts to unflattering discussions of the person's actions to official degrees such as shunning or excommunication in some communities. You are also using the presumption of innocence with respect to criminal actions argument as a deflection while totally ignoring the fact that you can be pronounced innocent in a court of law only to be subsequently pronounced guilty in a civil trail (think OJ Simpson's criminal trial for murder vs his civil trial for wrongful death). You are attempting to use the presumption of innocence as de facto proof if innocence, which it isn't.

I suggest that you really examine the conversations posted here and then stop trying to take Ty's claims out of context of the whole conversation.

some comments

Ed

Originally Posted by EdwardK

With respect to the administration of criminal punishments there is a presumption of innocence under the law but that does not guarantee freedom from social punishments for transgressions which can range from boycotts to unflattering discussions of the person's actions to official degrees such as shunning or excommunication in some communities. You are also using the presumption of innocence with respect to criminal actions argument as a deflection while totally ignoring the fact that you can be pronounced innocent in a court of law only to be subsequently pronounced guilty in a civil trail (think OJ Simpson's criminal trial for murder vs his civil trial for wrongful death). You are attempting to use the presumption of innocence as de facto proof if innocence, which it isn't.

I suggest that you really examine the conversations posted here and then stop trying to take Ty's claims out of context of the whole conversation.

some comments

Ed

Nobody is innocent in this. That I agree with. I have tried
my best not to take anything out of context. I respect your comment and will do better.

Originally Posted by FresnoTortoise

Nobody is innocent in this. That I agree with. I have tried
my best not to take anything out of context. I respect your comment and will do better.

So what exactly is the OP guilty of, asking a question? Ty had a raffle for a specific prize. When he changed that prize the OP as a winner of his raffle has every right to either not accept his replacement prize or question where it's coming from. Everything that has happened after that is a result of her not getting the prize she won. I can't even comprehend how anybody thinks that's ok. Hey I know you won this animal but I'm going to switch it for this animal. What you dare question me on the lineage of the replacement animal that's it you get nothing. That to me is absolutely crazy. Even if she had called Ty every name in the book he still owes her the prize she won. How you can think it's ok for him to deny her, her prize because she asked where it was coming from is insane to me.

Originally Posted by kerrek

How you can think it's ok for him to deny her, her prize because she asked where it was coming from is insane to me.

The vast majority here are looking at what facts are available to us and letting them lead us to a conclusion. Unfortunately, any such tactics would leave the Mings of the world with simply nothing to realistically say in support of Ty Park's actions. When such a situation arises, his ilk tend to try to mold the facts to fit their presuppositions. Such desperation is generally sad to see, but it's just the way some people need to operate.

Considering how stringently he's tried to play the racism card, while throwing in a bit of his own to boot, I just can't help believing that he may think his posts here are somehow sticking it to whitey. Even if the Chinese supposedly hate Koreans, it's not hard to imagine that someone of Asian descent, who clearly has an axe to grind, may embrace the mindset that any shade of yellow is still preferable to white. It's hard to say just what some people are thinking - if they're actually thinking.

Originally Posted by FresnoTortoise

Nobody is innocent in this. That I agree with. I have triedr.

I'm not sure where you got to nobody is innocent is in this from my statements. You tried to play the lack of charges by the states into Ty must be innocent and I refuted that..... then you tried to make the claim that people are innocent until judged guilty and I refuted that social/civil justice is significantly different from criminal justice as you can be guilty in one and innocent in the other and in the third no judged by a court at all and still face repercussions. From that point you've made the jump to implicating that I'm saying both parties are guilty to some extent and that is not supported by anything I've written. This is why I suggested you try to read more carefully and keep stuff in context as that is a pretty huge misinterpretation of what I wrote.

some comments

Ed

I disagree with you guys Dan and Ed on how guilty Ty is. Sorry guys, I looked at the evidence OP has posted. At the end of it, Ty Park offered OP an albino tegu. He gave her until oct. 8 to provide shipping address or she would have to sue him to attempt to get anything. On oct. 6, op told ty park she filed a lawsuit against him. The screen shots I used were provided by op, I do not feel I took them out of context. If you trace them back to the post numbers you can follow the message.

Originally Posted by FresnoTortoise

I disagree with you guys Dan and Ed on how guilty Ty is. Sorry guys, I looked at the evidence OP has posted.

Just an amazing bit of happenstance, how the only people managing to interpret the evidence in Ty's favor just happened to be people who'd already had him on a pedestal. I'm sure preconceptions play no role at all.

Originally Posted by FresnoTortoise

I would give him the benefit of the doubt and say Ty may have forgotten that he appears to have messaged OP this line "Ok I'll send u one I produced ok." He may not have saved all the early messages like OP did.

I generally do not call people lairs. And I hope I did not call anybody a lair during our 140 pages of happiness.

And you miss (AGAIN) Ty's own admission that he chose NOT to communicate what he was (allegedly) sending to the OP, to see if she was "greedy" and only in it for the money.

Yes the fact is, he did not have to tell op that it was a purple. All he had to do was tell her it was an albino blue tegu, just like what the raffle prize is and it was bred by him. I am pretty sure, his t+ and t minus tegus can all be called albino blue tegus. There is a discussion about it just a few post up.