DWARF Leopard Geckos???

Not to go off topic here, but Stina, Neonate reptiles get eaten alot more than adults do..... Why do you think so many are born in a single season??? Why do you think they need to grow to adult size and to breeding age so quickly???? Because there are more animals that can eat them when they are at smaller sizes.... It is so simple that even a child can pick this up...... Lets just say that in the wild, a female leo lays 8 eggs a season..... Now lets say out of these 8 eggs, 6 of them hatch...... Now out of these 6 neonates, how many do you honestly think make it to adult hood???? I would say 1 or 2 at best..... I dont see how you can pick apart my comments when you do not even have half a leg to stand on...... It is actually suprizing because most of your posts are very good with great, thought out info......

So my point to all this is that in the wild, a dwarf animal in a species that normally attain larger sizes, has a much higher chance of falling victim to predation..... Therefore this "dwarf gene" ( assuming that it is infact genetic) would not have any real bareing on wild populations..... Reasons..... (1) they would most likely be killed or eaten before having the chance to breed (2) if they did make it to breeding size, they would most likely have trouble passing eggs because of their small size and (again, assuming this is genetic) inablity to produce Dwarf sized eggs......

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Not to go off topic here, but Stina, Neonate reptiles get eaten alot more than adults do..... Why do you think so many are born in a single season??? Why do you think they need to grow to adult size and to breeding age so quickly???? Because there are more animals that can eat them when they are at smaller sizes.... It is so simple that even a child can pick this up...... Lets just say that in the wild, a female leo lays 8 eggs a season..... Now lets say out of these 8 eggs, 6 of them hatch...... Now out of these 6 neonates, how many do you honestly think make it to adult hood???? I would say 1 or 2 at best..... I dont see how you can pick apart my comments when you do not even have half a leg to stand on...... It is actually suprizing because most of your posts are very good with great, thought out info......

So my point to all this is that in the wild, a dwarf animal in a species that normally attain larger sizes, has a much higher chance of falling victim to predation..... Therefore this "dwarf gene" ( assuming that it is infact genetic) would not have any real bareing on wild populations..... Reasons..... (1) they would most likely be killed or eaten before having the chance to breed (2) if they did make it to breeding size, they would most likely have trouble passing eggs because of their small size and (again, assuming this is genetic) inablity to produce Dwarf sized eggs......

Gregg!...sure in a perfect world! But the world is far from perfect. At least any perceived perfection that man can slap a label on! There are as many different genetic conditions as there are different ecological and topographical differences. And to say that only large size geckos can survive is totally naive. If what you are saying is true than tell me why are there not 10' foot long (or longer) geckos running around? They have had plenty of time to evolve into this size! All animals in this world have evolved to fit the niche that they live in. If the lions share of geckos that are larger survive, than that it the path that evolution will take, if they are smaller than the path of there existence will take them in that direction! To say that small geckos, lizards, monkeys, fish or whatever won't survive because they are small is absolutely laughable. By the way there are smaller Leopard geckos in the wild and there are even smaller other types of geckos in the wild...hmmmmmm they must be a anomaly! well at least by your thinking!!!!!

Hey, I guess it could be hypocritical and I've wondered about thought that as well. There is just something about "dwarfs" that I am unfond of. I guess mostly it is the possible health risks that come along with such animals. Now if someone worked with them for quite some time and showed no negative health risk, I guess there would not be anything for me to be against, even though I still would not buy them. I would treat them then just as the "stubby-tail" leos, that I am highly against them, but I guess the look does not appeal to me.

Originally Posted by KelliH

While I am not in any way interested in your "dwarves", I think it is more than a tad hypocritical for us to condemn you while we celebrate "Giants". What is the difference my friends? Anyone?

Overton, good point but you gotta know I have an answer....LOL...
Like I said, the chances of living increase as the animal grows..... Animals that have evolved to be small have adapted to this and thrive..... Animals that have not evolved to stay small have not adapted to not reach their adult size making staying alive alot more difficult...... The same can be said for other morphs or "genetic defects"...... Do not twist my thinking.... I in no way said that small animals are anomalies nor did I say that only large geckos would survive in the wild..... All I am say is that the larger you are the less predators you have..... That is a fact.... Not only will you fall prey to adult animals but you will fall prey to animals that are not adult and other animals that would not be able to take a normal sized adult leo..... Plus if you are infact a true geneticly dwarf leo, your legs are shorter and you are not able to move as fast as normal leos..... They are not proportioned right..... It is so simple...... And there is no need for 10 foot geckos because they thrive just fine at the level they are at without genetic defects.... They have evolved and adapted to their situation based on the strongest animals that lived before them...... In the natural world, larger and stronger is better...... The animals that do not get large have adapted other ways to stay alive and thrive like coloration, huge clutches of offspring, and numerous types of defences...... These smaller animals are still the strongest of the animals and evolved to best suite their living situation.... So again, leos have adapted to life based on larger animals...... They have not adapted to life as little dwarfs.... The man made world is not perfect but mother nature is..... It is great how everything is so balanced in nature...... It is something us humans can never simulate....

. . . let me tell you - if it weren't for the fear of health risks breeding dwarfs, I would be doing it in a flash. I think of it no differently than having a Big Irish Wolfhound or "Bentley" - my 15 pound poop-producer schnoodle.

The only ethical consideration I would have is the worry of egg binding. Other than that - I don't see it any differently than giants or hybinos or tigers. I think that if anyone would want to breed them - they ought to do it under the direct supervision of an experienced herp vet - until we can figure out whether egg binding would be a problem.

BTW - Steve B - you are right - I am the one who has consistently said that most leos are way too fat. Bedonkadonk butts may be cool in the club to forshizzle my nizzle - but it ain't a sign of robust health in a leo.

Did I just say that?

Anyway - this is a great topic just as long as we don't get vicious with one another.

Montee, I aggree 100%

I appreciate you coming on this forum, James! You are obviously well-read and articulate... a welcome change from the "other" forum. It is my hope that you will become an active participant in Fauna's Forums! Now, I would like to clear up a few things.

I will also tell you that I resent the way you have tried to suck me into some kind of debate with you. I came here because my integrity was being attacked, and that should not have happened.

James, In my second email correspondence with you, I invited you to come and participate in this thread, and you said "No thanks, I have other things to do." Perhaps if you had come here to this thread at that time, your integrity would not have been attacked.

Let me start off by giving you the brief history of these animals. These animals came from a very good friend named Chris Harney. She is a great person who I have nothing but respect for. These are her Geckos, and I am simply selling them for her .... I am simply selling these for a friend (Chris), and feel it is important to represent them as honestly as I can.

Selling other people's animals is against the Kingsnake TOS. I hope nobody "tattles" on you.

Marcia, I respect your opinions, but you need to realize that you do not speak for everyone, or the hobby. You speak for yourself.

Of course I am only speaking for myself. I made no claim otherwise! As you can see by the compelling responses from others on this thread, the majority of the ones who's opinions are aligned with mine are actual professional Leopard Gecko breeders like me, not just the hobbyists.

You have absolutely no way of knowing how they came to be that way. It was just speculation on your part. I ask you again do you have any experience working with this like from Julie Bergman?

Yes. I do! Julie has been a personal friend of mine for about 7-8 years, and I am completely aware of what is behind the "dwarf" leopard geckos! They are truly dwarfs, not just small geckos, like I have said in two separate posts in this thread.

I am also aware of 3 other breeders (who's name I will not mention out of respect) that worked with these dwarfs, and ALL of them came to the conclusion that this is a very undesirable trait. Why? Because the vast majority of them could not reproduce, the ones that did died from dystocia (egg binding). The few offspring that did make it, were 'normal' sized geckos, and the only breeder I know that bred those normal offspring did indeed wind up producing a few dwarfs.

Now, that being said, these preliminary breeding experiments and discussions with Prof. Michelle Hawkins at UC Davis Exotics Dept., have given me enough evidence that dwarfism in Leopard Geckos is indeed a genetic defect, and is not something that most ethical and responsible breeders would like to see infiltrating into the general population. As for this defect occurring in the wild... I am most certain that it occurs! However, based on what I do know about these dwarfs, the chances of them reproducing this defect into their wild populations eventually becomes naturally culled by nature.

[quote=Now, that being said, these preliminary breeding experiments and discussions with Prof. Michelle Hawkins at UC Davis Exotics Dept., have given me enough evidence that dwarfism in Leopard Geckos is indeed a genetic defect, and is not something that most ethical and responsible breeders would like to see infiltrating into the general population. As for this defect occurring in the wild... I am most certain that it occurs! However, based on what I do know about these dwarfs, the chances of them reproducing this defect into their wild populations eventually becomes naturally culled by nature.[QUOTE/]

This has been my argument from the begining but a couple feel differently about this..... I am glad I am not the only one.....

Good information Marcia!

Anyway as far as small leos in the wild...Gregg if you had read before, I was not speaking of "true" dwarves (of which there are several different kinds of dwarfism), I made a point of saying smaller leos with NO other affects to their physiology. I am fully aware that more babies get picked off than adults, however there is a lot more than just size involved there. My point was that they don't all get eaten just because they are small, plenty make it to adulthood to support the species. Being smaller could move smaller leos into a new "predator notch" but being smaller would also make it easier to hide and would make them harder to see...it is impossible to say whether it would really be detrimental or not as there are too many variables involved. As far as evolution goes, they may be evolving larger or smaller...someone would have to do a study of leo size over many years to find out if they are getting larger or smaller or if their size is remaining consistent. Remember evolution is a continuous process (while VERY slow...it never really stops) and as an environment changes, so do the species residing there. Environments are also constantly changing...so what was ideal a hundred years ago for leopard geckos, bringing them to their current size, may not be ideal for them today (leading to larger or smaller geckos).

grrr....missing the edit button....

Anyway, I believe I also made a point to mention that the hypothetical leos I am referring to do not have egglaying problems.

As far as my responses usually being well thought out....that's usually not true...lol My responses are usually rambled out and somewhat random and confusing...occasionally I have something worthwhile to say...and occasionally I just send s(*& flying...lol I try to make my responses sound intelligent...but I'm too lazy to edit or think it out before I type unless I have to look something up