Is the Fall From Grace fatal to the Good Guy Certs?

This quote is what Karen left in my rep. points. I thought I would share it because she has decided it is ok for her to lie in this thread because she did not like a previous post of mine. She knows full well that the quote below has nothing to do with what she has accused me of here.

Originally Posted by Karen Hulvey

You conveniently forgot to mentino that you also said: I still wanted to know the context and it appeared that you were posting this thread as a result of a bad transaction with NERD. Which if true, would be cowardly thing."You forget that, of course

So, I made that post before I knew he had not had a transaction with NERD How does that translate to.

I demanded that David remove his post.

I understand completely people giving their opinion on how much weight the GGC holds for them individually, I'm just puzzled by the assertion that there is a definitive RIGHT or WRONG to its credibility.

This is what made me make this poll in the first place.

I also must note that I did not, nor have not, see the NERD thread, wherever it might be. I did not post this poll or thread in response to that thread and all context regarding that thread is completely lost to me. (I've found that the two sides to any de-venom type thread are so diametrically opposed to one another that I can't possibly hope to comprehend the issue so I don't read those threads)

I found that people on the Bill Leverton thread seemed to be implying that his fall from grace is in fact a fall from grace for the entire Good Guy Cert. and I just couldn't quite see it. THAT thread did not need this discussion, as this is really separate from the actual issues surrounding THAT thread. I do NOT believe that just because someone who has been labeled a GOOD GUY by the certification who ends up either GOING bad or being EXPOSED as bad causes any doubt to be shed on the GGC program. People who expected that only a 100% infallibly perfect human being/business have that certification obviously have expectations that will never be satisfied. Like EVERYTHING on this site, and all other sites I frequent, I take it as INFORMATION.... But I don't let other people make my opinions for me. The information can influence my opinions, but I am responsible for my own actions.

Case in point... One of the people I admire on this site a whole lot really hates another member of this site. While I admire the one person, I never quite accepted his wholehearted hatred of the other... I didn't see ENOUGH evidence. Then, one day quite recently, I finally saw several actions that made my opinion swing around to parallel those of the person I admired.

I let the Good Guy Certification be another place I can gather information.

This reminds me of eBay, which has been mentioned here. When I do a transaction on eBay, (I've done about 1000 this year), I look at a person's feedback before I take that leap. If they have a LOT of transactions, and NONE of the feedback is negative, I tend to consider it a good risk. IF they have any bad or neutral feedback, I search it down, read about it, and make my choice. How a person with 10,000 positive feedbacks and 10 negatives treats those negative feedback points is more important than all the positives. I then make (or don't make) the transaction based on what I learn.

Anyone who says that they did a transaction with so-and-so based solely on a little icon posted on their website, or based on a good guy certification without doing further research is someone who is asking for trouble.

Anyway.... for those deeply embroiled in the NERD thread, wherever it might be, please do not feel obligated to clue me in, don't worry about it. My eyes glaze over as soon as the word "Venom" is uttered.

Okay, fine, gone.

This is NOT about voids.

Let's try to stay on topic.

Yeah sure, when everyone else does.

Actually I was trying to get the stars out of people's eyes and make them realize that FREEHANDLING HOT SNAKES should not be tolerated, no matter who does it.

Now where do you stand on that issue, Wes?

[quote=Karen Hulvey]I didn't lie. You said "IT WOULD BE A COWARDLY THING IF HE GAVE THEM A BAD GUY VOTE & DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO BUSINESS W/THEM." I took that to mean you think he should retract the vote. If you didn't want him to retract the vote, why did you even post what you did?[quote]

That is not true. I said that it would be cowardly thing to post that thread if he had a bad transaction with them and posted that thread, instead of taking it to the BOI. That was way before I even know he did not have transaction with them. It is right there in BLACK and White.

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

The "Good Guy Certification forum" is usually for people who have done business with each person listed there. When I had seen that you posted a negative there, I assumed that you actually have done a transaction with them. If not, then my mistake.

I personally have the same opinion as you when it comes to Voids and have posted such many times. I still wanted to know the context and it appeared that you were posting this thread as a result of a bad transaction with NERD. Which if true, would be cowardly thing.

What you just said and what this quote says does not match.
You can clearly see I said if he posted this thread based on a bad experience NOT that he had no transaction.

Originally Posted by Karen Hulvey

Yeah sure, when everyone else does.

Actually I was trying to get the stars out of people's eyes and make them realize that FREEHANDLING HOT SNAKES should not be tolerated, no matter who does it.

Now where do you stand on that issue, Wes?

This thread, and this forum, is not for the discussion of that issue. Any further discussion in this thread about voids will get the poster warning points for posting off topic messages.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Well since you voted that the Good Guy Certification program really doesn't mean anything, no big loss to you now is there?

You want to know why I voted that way? Of course you couldn't care less, but I'm providing an explanation anyway.

1. Because its a buy in program that tries to act like a BBB but ultimately does not. BBBs hold themselves to a strictly neutral mediation program. Now obviously no one is completely neutral, but at the very least there should be disinterested parties. You have your own business interests, you have your own friends (clique if you will) and so do your moderators, along with everyone else. The point is, your biases and your moderators' biases are the most important since you (all) can ruin someone's reputation level, hand out warning points, appear extremely biased, and can ban people whom you dislike simply by going over each and every post someone makes with a fine-toothed comb.

No one is perfect, we all make mistakes; and yes I realize this is a large board but there have been examples in the past of regulars in the circle of friends not getting points for something of the same quality as someone who did get points in the same thread. I've seen you defend Richie Luna's behavior when he was a mod as "ferreting out the truth" and in that instance, when extreme pressure needs to be applied to determine who is lying, I can see a valid excuse for otherwise warnable behavior. On the other hand, there is an undercurrent of playing favorites and infighting for one-up-manship in the rank and file here. I have and do post at several other (admittedly smaller) boards and the cutthroat atmosphere is completely missing. Of course there's gonna be drama anywhere, but it seems to permeate every aspect of this board at times.

Back to the original point of #1, is that the Fauna good guy certification program is not neutral and never will be and therefore is not on the level as a BBB to me. Its your board, Rich. You're obviously doing with it what you see fit, but don't pretend to be on the same level as an organization that strives for neutrality when you and your moderators clearly do not.

2. This is a new program, part of the recent sea change that took place, and as with most new systems it's got bugs that need working out. Work out the bugs. Then maybe it will gain some more credibility in the eyes of disbelievers.

3. I voted that way because I am frustrated with "the system" in place here. The whole interlocking freaking system. I am frustrated with the moderation style, the politics and petty skirmishes, the stigma of being an active TRR member here, the pay to play aspect of practically all perks, including signature, etc etc etc. Its an emotional reason, which is why its last, but its valid nonetheless.

*The above post is my opinion alone. If you agree with it, great. If you don't, great. I'll be out of town tomorrow so I'm not "running away" if I don't log on.*

Back to the original point of #1, is that the Fauna good guy certification program is not neutral and never will be and therefore is not on the level as a BBB to me. Its your board, Rich. You're obviously doing with it what you see fit, but don't pretend to be on the same level as an organization that strives for neutrality when you and your moderators clearly do not.

Whit, I don't want to burst your bubble here, but do you know what is required to join your local BBB?

"To be a member of the Better Business Bureau, Inc., an applicant must, at a minimum:
Be in business in the Bureau’s service area for not less than six months for the purpose of Bureau membership, or not less than twelve months for the purpose of the Membership Identification Program (MIP), or such longer period of time as necessary to evaluate an applicant’s record, unless:
a. the principals previously operated a firm with a satisfactory record in this or another Bureau’s service area; or
b. the firm is a branch of an existing member or company that has met these standards; or
c. the company has signed a Pledge to Arbitrate agreement and/or an ADR Precommitment program agreement with the Bureau and is not engaged in a type of business that historically generates unresolved complaints or patterns of complaints.
MIP program participants must meet the criteria set forth in either (a) or (b) above to waive the twelve month in business requirement."

So you have to be in business for a year, or prove that you've been in business before.

"Complete and sign a membership application and pay appropriate dues and fees as set by the Better Business Bureau Board of Directors."

You have to pay a fee.

"Supply background information about the company, its principals and other information deemed essential to the Bureau's responsibility to provide inquirers with factual reports on the reliability of the business."

You have to prove that you are who you say you are.

"Fulfill all license and bond requirements of city, county, state and federal agencies and authorities; provide license numbers upon application for BBB membership; and provide periodic updates as requested by the Bureau."

You have to operate legally.

"Promptly respond to all complaints forwarded by the Bureau and make good faith efforts to resolve such complaints in accordance with generally accepted good business practices. MIP members must agree to binding arbitration under BBB Rules of Arbitration for all unresolved complaints; if the consumer also agrees, or pre-commit to a dispute settlement process through a provider other than the Bureau, which the Bureau determines substantially complies with BBB consumer dispute resolution criteria.
Comply in a timely manner with any decisions rendered through the Bureau arbitration programs.
Be free from an unsatisfactory report at the BBB in whose service area the company is headquartered.
Cooperate with the Bureau's efforts to eliminate the underlying causes of patterns of customer complaints that the Bureau calls to the company's attention.
Cooperate with the Bureau's activities and efforts to promote voluntary self-regulation within the company's industry.
Adhere to established Better Business Bureau standards of advertising and selling, including the Code of Online Business Practices for online businesses that apply for the BBBOnLine Reliability logo, and cooperate with the Bureau in matters relating thereto.
Be free from any governmental action concerning the marketplace and its customers that demonstrates a significant failure of the company to support the principles and purposes of the Better Business Bureau. Bureau staff must suspend a membership when an action is filed if the allegations suggest such a failure."

When you do something bad, you have to listen to us when we tell you how to fix it.

"Refrain from using the name or logo of the Better Business Bureau for commercial, sales or advertising purposes in any manner not specifically authorized in writing by the Better Business Bureau.
Support the principles and purposes of the Better Business Bureau and not engage in any activity that reflects unfavorably on the Bureau and its members."

Don't make us look bad, or drag us into your garbage.

You're correct, the GGC is NOT the BBB. However, it's still a paper tiger with no legal power or method of enforcement, except to kick someone out and maintain a record of all complaints lodged against a company. If you think it's an impartial organization, research further...politics galore, depending upon what branch you're talking about.

I understand your points with the GGC. I agree with some, not with others. I just wanted to point out that in reality, an organization that you hold in much higher esteem isn't really operating all that differently. It's all a matter of PERCEPTION and REPUTATION.

3. I voted that way because I am frustrated with "the system" in place here. The whole interlocking freaking system. I am frustrated with the moderation style, the politics and petty skirmishes, the stigma of being an active TRR member here, the pay to play aspect of practically all perks, including signature, etc etc etc. Its an emotional reason, which is why its last, but its valid nonetheless.

Again, I understand what you're saying, and I respect your opinion. I think the moderation style has definitely come under fire, and many people share your opinion. Politics and petty skirmishes exist on virtually every site. Being an active TRR member is only a stigma because of the TRR members that have espoused such vile hatred for FC and/or Rich, and no one likes it when someone visits your house just to poop on your floor, you know? I realize not every TRR member is in that group, but it's guilt by association. The pay to play argument has been beaten to death, but it is the way it is. If it's worth the perks, pay... if it's not, don't. The absolute worst part of the membership fee implementation is that so many people took it to mean that their value to the site was lost unless they coughed up $10...that IS emotional, and that IS personal, and many people feel that way. It's ok.

With all that said, I have to add that I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with you, just pointing out my observations and acknowledging that your feelings and perceptions are far from out of the ordinary.

I've detached quite a bit from the frazzle, here and at other sites, because it's not worth it. I put in my opinion when I feel like it, but I have no delusions of holding any sort of importance to the success of this site or any other...or the herp hobby as a whole. I think the events of the last few months have turned me into a mere observer, and that's probably not a bad thing.