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Old 03-21-2004, 10:47 AM   #1
SERPENTS DEN
Question Liability

On 11/23 an adult parent put $50.00 non-refundable deposit via credit card over the phone on a Peruvian Redtail Boa.
On 11/24 the customer asked if she can use the deposit towards a venomous West African Bush Viper instead. I explained verbally via phone to the parent the snake was venomous and can inflict serious injuries if someone were to get bit and I was assured that he had prior venomous handling experience and already has other venomous snakes in his collection and was given verbal permission to go ahead with the transaction despite knowing the dangers of owning potentially dangerous reptiles.
This snake was picked up on 11/25 by her 17 year old son with the remaining balance being paid in full with the credit card she loaned her son so it can be swiped/processed on my credit card terminal. I also had him sign a release form which I know is not binding due to the fact he was not 18 years of age. The release form reads as is:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 Day Guarantee

This seven-day Guarantee is at the seller’s discretion. As follows’ the animal must show evidence of an illness that is or was long-term or apparent when the animal was still under the seller's care.
A statement of proof must be provided from a certified veterinarian stating that there was an illness present at the time of purchase; only then will the original price, that the animal was purchased for be credited for store credit. This excludes vet bills and/or accessories that were purchased for the animal or any shipping cost. Disease and/or medical conditions must be proven to have arisen from the fault of the seller. Animals cannot be returned due to abuse and/or negligence of the buyer. We are not responsible or able to warrant the actions/behaviors of our animals.
Warranty does not include injuries/death due to housing and/or equipment used by buyer.

Purchase Agreement

SELLER:

We are not responsible for the action and/or the behaviors of our animals. We reserve the right to refuse the sale of certain species to inexperienced individuals and purchasers of venomous species.

BUYER:

You the buyer must be aware, prior to purchase, all the state, local, city, and/ or municipal laws and/or regulations. Therefore, the buyer will absolve the seller of any liabilities of the aforesaid. Buyer hereby releases and forever discharges seller its successors and assigns, from all debts, claims, demands, actions, and causes of actions whatsoever, which buyer now has or may hereafter have, in which have arisen out of, by reason of, or in any manner have grown out of injury sustained by the buyer including injuries or death to buyer known and unknown, which buyer may have sustained, suffered or may sustain or suffer by reason of delivering into possession of the aforesaid potentially dangerous Animal, Reptile, Amphibian or Arachnids.

ALL TURTLES UNDER 4" ARE SOLD FOR SCIENTIFIC OR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.



Agreement made this day of ______________
Between Serpent’s Den of the Carbon Plaza Mall, Route 443 Lehighton, PA 18235 referred to as the seller and _________________________________________________ Herein referred to as the buyer.
ALL SALES ARE FINAL.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.

On January 26th I received this e-mail from the 17 year old son.

From: 17@aol.com [mailto:17@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:48 AM
To: reptiles@serpentsden.com
Subject: please read

i was wondering how venomous my atheris chlorechis like on a scale of 1 to 10 for it to kill me if i got but i promase i will not take any more chanced like that in my life i promase well you are the nicest herpetoloigst i have ever talked to you know your $hit man thanks again for everything and 1 more thing since i bought my bush viper a couple of months ago she hasend shed at all not even any signs for it but she eats and drinks she's verry healthy sorry to bother you soo much but i just trust your knowlage if you can write back a.s.a.p. i would highly appreate it thank you again for everything.......... sincerely,


My Reply to the 17 year old on 1/26/04
On a scale of 1 to 10 I would guess at saying maybe a 3
As far as the snake not shedding, it will when it’s ready to, try feeding it more often.

Hope this helps,
Steve Markevich

Serpent's Den
Carbon Plaza Mall
1241 Blakeslee Blvd. East
Lehighton, PA 18235

Tel. (570) 386-8122

www.serpentsden.com



On March 12, 2004

I received a notification from an attorney that the 17 year old was bitten on his finger by the West African Bush Viper and a Lawsuit is pending liability.

I removed this thread because a number of members have told me it would be in my best interest that it be removed.
I have never made it a practice to sell venomous reptiles to anyone under 18 years of age and feel the transaction was between myself and the parent.

I’ve been keeping venomous reptiles since I was very young and owned cobras and many other exotics well before the age of 18 with parental permission.


I have also asked a question as to if anyone knew the laws pertaining to keeping venomous. That got twisted like I did not know the laws myself, I was asking a question because I don’t know of any federal law that requires a person to be 18 and there are no laws in Pennsylvania saying a person must be 18 years of age.
Florida laws are irrelevant here in Pennsylvania were this took place.

I've been bitten on several occasions and knew before-hand the risk and consequences I was taken but never did I feel I should hold the seller accountable for my personal mishaps.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



LANCASTER SUNDAY NEWS (Pennsylvania) 27 March 04 Snakebit (Maria Coole Mcoole)
Bitten by his West African bush viper, a Pequea boy’s life is saved by doctors and zookeepers. He may lose a finger.
One of Vinny Drago’s dreams is to meet Steve Irwin of TV’s “The Crocodile Hunter.’’ Irwin has spent his whole life living amongst and working with reptiles and other native Australian wildlife at the Australia Zoo, which was founded by his parents.
Vinny’s experience with reptiles pales in comparison, but the 17-year-old Pequea boy has had one experience that Irwin hasn’t. He has been bitten by a venomous snake.
And he didn’t choose a good one.
Yes, it was beautiful: bright green with yellow spots and turquoise eyes.
But the most important thing to consider if you are going to keep a venomous snake is “Can you get antivenin?” (Antivenin is also known informally as antivenom).
And for the West African bush viper, the first venomous snake Vinny owned, the answer is no.
Vinny could have died, and might lose a finger, because he didn’t know that.
Vinny Drago owned his first pet snake at age 4. Reptiles and amphibians have been his passion. He grew up in Florida and caught many in their natural habitat. When he was in kindergarten, he even carried a coral snake off a playground because the teacher and students were frightened.
He has had many nonvenomous pet snakes, including pythons and boa constrictors and has done much research on snakes. But the West African bush viper (Atheris chlorechis) and its venom have not been studied much, and there have been conflicting reports about how dangerous a bite could be.
Vinny said the man he bought the snake from told him it wouldn’t hurt him. “The guy had told me, if I had gotten bitten, nothing would happen. I would not even get sick. I would just have a little bit of pain, like a bee sting,’’ Vinny said.
Vinny’s mother Lisa called the man the next day. “He said ... it would not hurt my son,’’ she said.
The Dragos did not want the name of the person who sold the snake to Vinny published.
“You know that gut feeling you get when you are a parent. I just had that gut feeling. … I was too naïve,” said Lisa.
“If I’d known there was no antivenom, I would never allowed Vinnie to have it.”
There are not many people who are competent to work with West African bush vipers, said Brint Spencer, curator of reptiles and amphibians at the Philadelphia Zoo.
“In general, venomous snakes should never be considered a pet. They are ... something to observe,’’ he said.
And anyone keeping a venomous snake should keep antivenom, he said.
Spencer said he is unaware of any fatalities from a bush viper bite in the United States. “Typically, it’s very painful, usually not fatal,’’ he said.
After living with Vinny for seven months, the West African bush viper, about 19 inches long and 3 to 4 years old, has been a vagabond.
It spent a few weeks with Chet Sourbeer of Millersville after he heard through a friend that Lisa wanted it out of her house. But after Sourbeer took the snake to Millersville, word filtered to the police department, which informed Sourbeer of the borough zoning ordinance that prohibits keeping venomous snakes.
The snake then spent a day at the Millersville Borough police station until police Chief John Rochat contacted the Philadelphia Zoo, and Spencer came to pick it up.
The snake will soon move from the Philadelphia Zoo to a venom lab in Kentucky, where it will stay until it finds a permanent home at a zoo in Ohio.
Sourbeer, who has kept many reptiles and amphibians, said the man who sold the snake to Vinny “had no business selling the snake to a kid that young.”
There is no Pennsylvania law forbidding the sale of exotic venomous snakes, said Gary Davis, president and founder of the Northeast Pennsylvania Herpetological Society.
The only laws concern native species, he said. The state leaves it up to each municipality, he said.
Chad Peeling, operations manager for Reptiland on U.S. Route 15 in Allenwood, said a lot of towns have laws against keeping venomous snakes.
“The real problem is when people do foolish things. It’s hard to legislate against that,” he said. “In terms of legalities, there are no broad statewide or nationwide laws preventing people from keeping venomous snakes,” he said.
The West African bush viper is not a threat to community, he said, but “it can put you in hospital and make your life pretty unpleasant for a while.”
Vinny’s life became “pretty unpleasant” on Feb. 9. Before he went to bed in the early morning, he checked the bush viper’s cage. The snake looked like it might be dead. He reached in and moved a log in the cage.
The snake struck, sinking its two fangs into his left index finger.
The pain began immediately. Within minutes his hand and arm were swollen, and his finger, where the snake struck, was turning black and blue. By the time the ambulance arrived, the tissue in his finger and hand was already dying.
Vinny ran into his mother’s room, waking her up, yelling in pain.
“I thought for sure I was going to lose him,” said Lisa.
Rescue personnel quickly contacted Harrisburg Hospital, which told them to have the nearest medical helicopter airlift Vinny to Harrisburg. Then Harrisburg began researching what to do about the bite.
Dr. Kevin Washington got on the phone with Lisa, and she gave him all the information she could.
While the Conestoga Ambulance crew was putting a tourniquet on Vinny’s arm to prevent the progression of the venom, the helicopter was landing across from their home deep in the country.
Washington was spending just a month at Harrisburg Hospital as part of his residency training. This was his first snake bite. Dr. Ward Donovan, head of the toxicology department, has dealt with snake bites but never one with no available antivenom, Washington said.
The next step was checking with poison centers throughout the country to find the best antivenom, Washington said.
He also searched the Internet for information. He and Donovan settled on a polyvalent (a mix of antivenoms that included antigens that work on snakes similar to the West African bush viper) from South Africa. But the choice was a gamble.
After finding out through a poison control center in Tuscon, Ariz., which zoos in the country might have the South African antivenom, Washington called the Philadelphia Zoo and the Baltimore Zoo. Both zoos, which Washington praised for their help, provided antivenom.
Vinny arrived at Harrisburg Hospital at between 1:30 and 2 a.m., Washington said. Spencer of the Philadelphia Zoo got a phone call at home at around 2:30 a.m. He drove to the zoo to pick up five vials of antivenom and then drove to the Philadelphia airport. A helicopter from Harrisburg was at the airport to fly the antivenom back to the hospital. At the same time, employees from the Baltimore Zoo were driving 10 vials of antivenom to Harrisburg.
Meanwhile, the hospital staff was giving Vinny rattlesnake antivenom at around 3 a.m., hoping it might help while they waited for the antivenom from Philadelphia.
It didn’t help. The swelling continued, and Vinny’s entire arm was so painful that even grazing it lightly was excruciating, Washington said.
At around 4:30 a.m., Vinny got the first South African polyvalent antivenom when the Philadelphia Zoo vials arrived. The antivenom from the Baltimore Zoo came later. Vinny was given more antivenom at around 10 or 11 a.m., Washington said.
The progression of the damage from the venom stopped after the hospital administered the South African antivenom, Washington said, although his body might have been starting to recover on its own at the same time he received the South African antivenom.
Washington said he doesn’t really know if Vinny came close to dying from the snake bite, although the teen showed signs that the venom had gotten into his central circulation system and he had blood abnormalities.
Without the antivenom, “potentially [Vinny] could have lost his arm or could have died. There is no way to know for sure.”
If there could be any luck involved in a snake bite, Vinny was in one of the best places he could have been. Harrisburg Hospital is the only hospital in the country that has a toxicology unit with hospital beds dedicated just for poison patients.
Vinny spent nine days in the hospital. He is home now, but cannot go to school. A Penn Manor High School student, he is being schooled at home two days a week.
His prognosis is very good, Washington said, but he still might lose his left index finger because there was a lot of tissue damage, and he could need skin grafts. When antivenom is administered it does not stop the local tissue damage; it just stops the progression of the venom through the body, he said. He estimated it would take several months for Vinny’s finger to heal.
Washington has written an article on Vinny’s case for a medical journal, but it isn’t published yet.
Because there is not a great demand for an antivenom for the West African bush viper, no one has invested the time and money to produce it. In its native habitat in northwest and middle Africa the snake has rare contact with humans.
The antivenom the Philadelphia Zoo stores is imported from South Africa. To import the antivenom, Spencer needs a special combined permit that is issued by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Health & Human Services Department.
Some zoos, including the Philadelphia Zoo, won’t keep bush vipers on display because there is no antivenom, said Spencer.
Chad Peeling of Reptiland said Harrisburg Hospital also called them looking for antivenom, but they didn’t have what was needed.
“It is dangerous,” Peeling said of the West African bush viper. “It is not high on the list of the most dangerous snakes,” he said.
“They are relatively small snakes. That is a factor. The quantity of the venom is smaller with smaller snakes.”
The venom is poorly studied and so few bites occur, he said, there is not much experience in treating them.
The American Association of Poison control Centers has no data on West African bush viper bites, and the bites are not required to be reported anywhere, a spokeswoman for the group said.
A snake can control the amount of venom it releases, said Spencer of the Philadelphia Zoo. How a bite affects a person depends on sensitivity, where the bite is and how much venom was injected, said Spencer.
If the snake hits a vein or artery, the venom will travel more quickly through the blood. If the snake thinks it is being threatened, it will inject a smaller amount of venom than if it is striking to kill its food, Spencer said.
“In a feeding response, the snake wants to kill whatever it is as quickly as possible, so it doesn’t have to track it.”
“In a captive situation,” he said, “when a snake strikes, it is usually a feeding response because it is used to the door opening and food coming in.”
Spencer said the real cost of keeping snakes isn’t the purchase price; it’s the cost of the antivenom.
But that cost has to include importation paperwork and brokerage fees. The cost of the antivenom from the Philadelphia Zoo, not including Spencer’s time and the helicopter, probably was around $500.
In researching his upcoming book, Michael Jacobi, the author of The World of Atheris Web site (www.worldofatheris.net) found only a handful of bite accounts, he told the Sunday News in an e-mail.
He writes on his Web site that African bush viper venom is “poorly studied and generally misunderstood. ... [There is] an erroneous belief that these snakes are ‘mildly venomous’ or not life threatening. This is simply not true.”
Grateful mom
Lisa, who is unemployed, is worried about the bills. Insurance will not pay for the helicopter trips, the ambulance, Vinny’s medicine and the antivenom. And when Vinny turns 18 in April, he will no longer be covered by insurance.
She is grateful, though, for all the help they have gotten and how much people have cared.
She praised the hospital and staff, also.
“The toxicology team was great. … I can’t thank them enough.”
But Washington garnered most of her praise.
“I just owe him everything. … He’s just a really wonderful doctor,” Lisa said.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 10:57 AM   #2
Seamus Haley
Your transaction was with the parent.

A legal adult who made a decision to purchase an animal within the boundaries of the law.

While you have a moral obligation to educate the buyer long before the purchase was made, if they insist that the education and experience needed is already in place and then proceed to act like morons, I don't personally see how amny blame can be attached to you.

Had you misrepresented the animal as being nonvenomous, then there's a potential lawsuit. Had the parent not been involved with the purchase, there's a potential lawsuit. But given the situation you described above you really have no responsibility here. After they take posession of the animal you have no control over how they approach it's care or handling and can't protect them from their own idiocy.

A court may or may not agree with me... but those are my thoughts, such as they are.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 11:34 AM   #3
meretseger
That's horrible, you have all sorts of proof that the transaction was legal and they both understood the risks. Hopefully it will get thrown out of court.

What happened to the snake? I imagine it's dead


Erin Benner
 
Old 03-21-2004, 11:39 AM   #4
gmherps
I agree with Seamus 100%. You did your part, and covered your butt with the release forms. Just let the attorney's work it out now.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 11:46 AM   #5
E2MacPets
Quote:
This snake was picked up on 11/25 by her 17 year old son with the remaining balance being paid in full with her credit card being swiped on my terminal.
I also had him sign a Release Form which I know is not binding because of him being 17.
Wait a second.. are you saying the son swiped the mothers card?

I'm sorry but that's how I'm reading it... the son came to pick up the animal and paid the balance with his mothers card in his hand. You had the son, a minor, sign the agreement which would also indicate that the mother was not present.

The mother has a case, unfortunately. Verbal agreements aside, you allowed a minor to purchase a venemous snake with a credit card that was not his own.

Your only written communications with the family in regards to the viper are with the minor. Assuming the deposit was made by the mother, it is still not written out for the viper.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 12:00 PM   #6
VenomJ
Steve, I do dissagree on one thing that you wrote him in the email. You said a Chlorechis's venom is only a 3 on a scale of
1-10? I would rate it much higher because that snake has been known to cause fatalities. The mother wrote to you saying he was free handling and kissing a venomous snake, let alone an Atheris species. Any Atheris keeper would agree that you cannot free handle, let alone kiss a snake like that. I would ask his attorney to see how the doctor's handled this case because there is no specific Antivenin for Atheris species. Only Echis AV has been known to even neutralize it. You did cover your part on the deal. This whole thing sounds a bit fishy. I hope everything ends well for you.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 12:08 PM   #7
Wilomn
Two things to keep in mind I think.

#1
Letting the kid use his mom's card. Without written permission from her to make the purchase I don't think it's legal unless he is a signer on the account. I have no idea if this will have anyting to do with your problem but you should check either with your credit card company or gubitz.

#2
If you made the sale of a venomous reptile to a minor and allowed him to pick it up that could also be a problem for you. You'll need to check out your state laws, county laws, and city laws to see what your liability might be.

It does sound like a set up to me and I would be asking for emergency room records and go talk to the treating Doctor yourself and see what the kid had to say while he was there. If he was trying to set you up he may have been asking about lawsuits and what he would need to start one. Talk to the nurses on duty as well.

I think instituting a policy of no sales of venomous reptiles to minors under any circumstances is now warranted.

Good Luck on this one,
Wes Pollock
 
Old 03-21-2004, 12:09 PM   #8
E2MacPets
Re: Credit Card

Quote:
Originally posted by serpentsden
Swiped meaning his mother lent him the Credit Card to pay the balance off and be processed through my credit card terminal.
I also have a written reciept besides the release form stating the sale was for a West African Bush Viper.

Sincerely,
Steve Markevich
Yes I understand that. But you don't have written authorization from his mother to have used the card. It doesn't matter that what you say is true. The mother can claim that her son stole the card.

In my opinion this is the one thing you did wrong that will come back to bite you... pardon the pun.

You took a deposit over the phone and you took complete payment with the card at time of sale from the son. You have nothing proving that the mother authorized the purchase in any way! It will all come down to how honest the mother wants to be and if she's suing you she's not about to claim any degree of responsibility if she can avoid it.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 12:13 PM   #9
Neil Gubitz
Steve.... Unfortunately, if they Do take this to court, you had better get a GOOD attorney....

1. The minor signed the waiver, which in the eyes of the law, is non-existant....

2. You let the minor use his mother's card and let HIM sign it.... BAD MOVE....

3. For all you know, the mother had NO correspondence with you.... it COULD have been a girl friend of the minor that acted as the mother....

4. If the mother calls her credit card company for a chargeback.... she WILL get it because it was not signed by her....

5. YOU will be responsible for all your attorneys costs.... and if you lose, you will probably be responsible for HER attorney's fees, too....

Buddy, you are in for a very tough fight.... you should have NEVER sold a venomous snake to a minor, whether he had his mother's permission or not.... it was a disaster just waiting to happen.... you gambled, and I'm afraid you're going to lose on this one....

I really wish I could give you SOME hope in this matter.... but she's got you by the fangs!!

Good luck....

Neil
 
Old 03-21-2004, 12:25 PM   #10
VenomJ
I'm surprised the doctors didnt contact Al Cruz of the Miami-Dade Antivenin unit. They handle the majority of exotic bite cases around the country. The doctor's made huge mistake in giving him any kind of treatment. Did the guy even have any prior venomous experience before purchasing the Chlorechis? If he didn't he wouldnt even know how strike happy the Atheris spp. are.
 

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