Finding Melissa Kaplan

Sounds like you've made up your mind. But all of the big name support in the world does not counteract that Ms. Kaplan's site does contain inaccurate and harmful information about cornsnakes!

I do not know much about a lot of herps, but I do know corns. So, if I see someone giving out obviously bad information on one of the most widely understood species in the world, I have to question what she knows on the other issues about which I am less knowledgeable.

The woman is a menace. I am sorry you cannot/will not see that.

As for Melissa Kaplan's husbandry information, I regularly attend lectures and classes given both live and online by some of the world's most respected writers and researchers in the field of reptile medicine. It's expensive but worth it - I learn a lot, and I get to hear what the real experts in the field are doing. Ms. Kaplan's web site is referred to repeatedly by these authorities as a good site for veterinarians to consult and to send their clients to.

This is one of my pet peeves with Ms. Kaplan and the vets who support her. They, in my opinion, pander to one another. Most vet that I have met, and this includes quite a few, and also most that I have communicated with online, and most whose words I have read online, do not have a clue as to PROPER herp care. Veterinarians are not trained primarily about animal husbandry, they are schooled in medicine. Vets are by far not the best qualified to give advice on herp care no matter how many vet schools they have attended and no matter how much they claim to know (generally speaking). This is where Melissa Kaplan, again in my opinion, manipulates people. She ropes them in, under her wing so to speak, as she pretends to be the almighty in herp knowledge. They fall for it too because she is so pervasive. Sure she gets some stuff right, but most of it, in my opinion, is bunk or is copied from other sources (not implying any copyright infringement at all but I once saw where she wrote that not much has been written on a particular herp yet, so she cannot give out much info on that same herp).

Now you come here, and in essence admit to being the same as MK - a crusader for more restrictions on people. I am for better knowledge for people, and I freely share my herp knowledge in on-line forums, at pet expos, at exhibitions at schools from grammar school to Grad Schools, in exhibitions at state parks, at scout meetings, and through my local herp society and my web page. I do not try or even propose ever regulating anyone’s privilege to keep pets. Did you see anyone here say that it is a right to keep a pet other than you? Yet you say we did! Where is that? Even if someone said it, you seem to imply it is the majority here that feels such is a right. Actually, it may be a right of mankind in general to keep other creatures. I don't know if it is or not, but we are in a position to do so. Is it your right, I wonder, to impose rules or regulations onto others? Even if it is your right, why not first try to educate. Education is the harder thing than is regulation. Education is tough to do, and it also makes people as smart as you. Are you afraid of that. Would you rather keep people in the dark and reign over them by way of regulation. That is what you are heading for as does, in my opinion, PETA, The Humane Society of the United States, ALF, ELF, and Melissa Kaplan and others like her. My advice to people like that is: Get off your high horse of being better and knowing better than others and start to educate others. Of course, you don't have to take my advice and I would never suggest regulation to make you do so!

Tanith, up until your last post I thought you had a pretty good handle on things. One question before I go on though, do I need to be a member of your "club" to get you to listen or does the 30 years I've been keeping reptiles count for anything? I, and many others here on fauna, have no formal training or degrees in any herp related fields. But I would bet that almost anything you could ask could be accurately answered by members here from knowledge that they have gained by ACTUALLY working with the animals in question.

I used to own a reptile specialty store. When iguanas started to flood the market we stopped carrying them other than as special orders. Same for water dragons and almost all other imports. I myself have bred about 20 different species of reptiles and kept too many to count.

Ms. kraplan is not good for those of us who care about our animals. She has an agenda that is not in line with the keeping and breeding and enjoyment of these animals that we like/love so much.

I have had more than one person I know go to a vet only to be told the wrong information about keeping as well as medicating reptiles. There are some very good reptile vets out there and there are a lot of doctors of veterinary medicine that don't really know a house gecko from a leopard gecko much less a corn snake from a boa constrictor.

I guess my point is I, and I'm speaking only for myself but suspect a large number of readers will agree, there are a lot of experts out there, and I mean that in a positive way, that have gained the knowledge they have by YEARS of trial and error that has lead to successfully an incredible amount of reptiles. Some of these people know far more about the herps they keep than most of the vets out there. kraplan is not one of these people.

If you can't look outside your exclusive little club then you are missing a wealth of information and some pretty good people out there.

Just because a licensed DVM agrees with a twit like kraplan does not make her an authority.

Wes Pollock

"As for Melissa Kaplan's husbandry information, I regularly attend lectures and classes given both live and online by some of the world's most respected writers and researchers in the field of reptile medicine. It's expensive but worth
it"

Instead of spending your hard earned $$$ thats going to end up in the coffers of someone who really does think you are too dumb, ignorant or naive to care for any reptile hang out here for a bit and ask your questions...Some of the worlds most respected breeders and proponents of the herp world will answer them...for free...

Yep, now I think I have a pretty good handle on why people hate Melissa Kaplan. There seems to be an automatic knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that there are problems in the pet and wildlife trade that need fixing. The problems do exist, but the solution is not to dump the baby out with the bathwater and ban everything. Nor is the solution to turn a blind eye to the problems and yell at anybody who points them out.

There are a lot of very unpleasant things happening in the pet and wildlife trade, because along with good and responsible keepers, there are some very dubious individuals who care more about making a buck then about keeping their herps healthy. Selling sick herps is not a good thing, nor is keeping them in inadequate conditions that result in their getting sick.

I don't think that my stance is particularly extreme. I think that anyone who is capable of caring for an animal properly should be allowed to keep or sell it. I also think that someone who is *not* capable of caring for an animal properly, someone who will let that animal get sick and die, should not be allowed to keep or sell it. That seems simple and reasonable to me, though I am aware that actually putting this idea into practice is not simple and may cause real problems for people who keep reptiles responsibly.

There are pet stores in my area where the reptiles are sickly and emaciated, huddled under indadequate lights on inappropriate substrate that is covered in feces. I would indeed like to see them shut down. There are other pet stores in my area that are clean and that care for their animals very well. I support them with my business and hope that they stay around my community for a long time. It's not a black and white issue, and it shouldn't be trivialized that way.

If you really don't know who Doug Mader and Steve Divers are, if you think they can be put in the same class as the vets who don't know anything about reptiles, then you should do some reading in the field of reptile medicine. These people know their stuff, and I am not exaggerating when I say that they are widely acknowledged to be among the top world experts on reptile medicine. What they don't know about reptile physiology isn't known. I trust the opinions of these experts over anything I hear from unknown people on the Internet.

As for cka's suggestion that I to stop going to vet school accredited classes and lectures and ask questions of breeders instead, I don't think that would work out too well. I am not belittling the knowledge and experience that exists in the private sector, but breeders can't teach me to perform emergency surgery on a badly hurt snake that will save its life. Vet school can.

If you will point out specifically the inaccurate information on corn snakes, I will research the question and see whether or not it is true that Kaplan is giving out bad information. But if breeders are saying one thing and reptile medicine experts are saying another, I know whom I will believe.

Breeders really know their stuff; they have to in order to be successful in the long term. The average long-time reptile breeder knows a lot more about how to keep their charges healthy than the average veterinarian. But reptile medicine experts are on the cutting edge of current research into the specialized anatomy, physiology and veterinary needs of these species, which all have practical implications in husbandry. Which is certainly a subject that these particular docs are paying close attention to, because it is the single most important factor in a patient's health and recovery. If they don't know their stuff, including husbandry, they can't be successful in the long term either. These people do know what they are doing, and if they say that a source is good then I think it's well worth taking them seriously.

Well tanith it is good to see that along with your medical knowledge of reptiles you've gotten one on the human reaction as well, and such a valid and useful one as well, how special.

I don't think you realize that Darin and Seamus are not your typical herpers. Heck even I am not typical. Sometimes we actaully do know of what we speak. And without any formal education too. I am making an assumption on that one as I have talked to neither Darin nor Seamus about it.

Nobody has said anything about dumping the baby out with the bath water buy how long do you let that baby sit in poo before you figure that something about the method needs to be changed? As far as I can see there has been no blind eye turned to a problem, in fact it's just the opposite in that Ms. kraplan seems to be a problem and that has been pointed out to you in what seems to be direct opposition to those from whom you mainline your knowledge. You may want to ponder the notion that even a well trained and well meaning DVM can be wrong. In fact I bet it's actually happened a time or two before.

Have you ever done anything about those pet shops in your area that have those sick animals being kept in poor conditions? I don't believe that anyone has said anything negative about Mader or Divers. They may not be so all knowing as you think but you must look up from whatever internet class or book you are reading to see that. There are a great many sourses of information. I am somewhat doubtful that they actually know all there is to know however. It is fine to trust their opinions but to trust them to the exclusion of all others seem a bit extreme to me.

If you are touting kraplan as an expert known to be so by your only sourses don't you think it would behoove your own clients and patients to do a little research yourself to see just what kind of nonesense she puts out there as gospel? Don't you have any care for the responsibility that goes with your postion as a giver of factual information?

I must disagree with you on the last statement you made about vets who do not keep reptiles in large numbers for many years having the same experiance and knowledge as those of us who have and do. They may know the theory well but, the practical application is sometimes different than theory. I'm not saying they don't know a great deal as I know they do. What I am saying is that they don't know everything and since they do not keep these animals in large numbers they may, just may, not be up on all the latest knowledge known by your average large breeder.

Ms. kraplan is neither a student of veterinary medicine nor a keeper of reptiles. She espouses the platform that they do not make good pets and should not be kept.

I think you should do a little research of your own before you go touting the recommendations of others.

Wes Pollock

Originally posted by wilomn Have you ever done anything about those pet shops in your area that have those sick animals being kept in poor conditions?

Yes, and spent quite a lot of my own time and money doing so over many years. How about you?

If you are touting kraplan as an expert known to be so by your only sourses don't you think it would behoove your own clients and patients to do a little research yourself to see just what kind of nonesense she puts out there as gospel? Don't you have any care for the responsibility that goes with your postion as a giver of factual information?

Lots. That is why I suggest that the advice of acknowledged world experts in reptile medicine is worth listening to. I consider their words to be more trustworthy that rude, unprofessional flaming rants from semi-literate people on the Internet.

If you disagree with someone's viewpoint, you may say so in a calm and professional manner and in doing so convince others that it is worth listening to what you have to say. If you rant and rave and behave in an unprofessional manner, eg calling names and presenting your viewpoint poorly, you will not be taken seriously. If you disagree with something that Ms. Kaplan is saying, please have the courtesy to state your disagreement and the facts to support your view.

I must disagree with you on the last statement you made about vets who do not keep reptiles in large numbers for many years having the same experiance and knowledge as those of us who have and do. They may know the theory well but, the practical application is sometimes different than theory.

Ahh, but I was not talking about vets who do not keep reptiles in large numbers. The people I mentioned specifically are in fact responsible for the husbandry of large groups of reptiles, and have kept them for many years quite successfully. Why did you automatically assume they were not keepers?

I am not belittling the knowledge that does exist in the private sector, though you seem to be ignoring that fact. But there is no reason that a vet who has dedicated his professional career to reptile research cannot also be an experienced keeper. Do you think that a vet who has been responsible for the husbandry of large numbers of reptiles for many years will know *less* than a non vet who is doing the same thing?

Ms. kraplan is neither a student of veterinary medicine nor a keeper of reptiles. She espouses the platform that they do not make good pets and should not be kept.

Not last I checked. That would be an inaccurate summary of her actual position, as far as I can tell from reading her material.

I think you should do a little research of your own before you go touting the recommendations of others.

I have full confidence in the knowledge and experience of the experts in reptile medicine whom I have cited. I have not read every page on Ms. Kaplan's site, but what I have read so far has not conflicted with anything I have learned in the veterinary classes I have attended.

Hmmmmmm, it seems that we each think the other misses the points we are trying to make Tanith.

At this point I'll let it go at that. I've neither flamed nor ranted, just been incredulous that you have the viewpoint that you do. You are entitled to your opinion.

I have and will continue to try to educate petshops about the animals they keep. I too, am entitled to my opinions.

I will agree to disagree with you about kraplan and her stance.

I suspect that we both would have the same goals were we to sit down and discuss them. Your road is simply not the one I'm travelling on.

In all honesty I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

Wes Pollock

I suspect that we both would have the same goals were we to sit down and discuss them. Your road is simply not the one I'm travelling on.

Throughout the years, I've found that many roads ultimately lead to the same destination.

Whulp...

I'm not going to try and take up a position that Mader is somehow not certain of what he's talking about... BUT, I have also heard the gentleman make comments which are directly opposed to many which Kraplan has made... I doubt the strength of any support which may have been accidently implied at any point. The only really credible person who actively supports Kraplan in any manner is Adam Briton (spelling? Croc guy) and in doing a bit of investigation, it turns out they work for the same publishing group.

Now...

http://www.anapsid.org/ban.html

Which, because of the modifiers to her statements seems okay at first, but she expresses many times on other portions of her site that ALL reptiles and amphibians are "impossible to keep healthy in captivity"

This, first and foremost is why she is a danger to the hobby, not somebody to be supported in any manner and someone who should be outed to the general public as what she is (mainly a card carrying member of PETA).

On to some specifics... She has stated in the past that any corrections to her site will be made if they are pointed out. Many of the following have been pointed out hundreds of times in the last four or five years, at least a dozen each by myself alone.

Ball pythons are semiarboreal.
Continually reccomends books by VosJolie (Bad, BAD!)
Reptiles learn "trust"
Burmese Pythons are "killers" with a link to an article which implies very strongly that the snakes themselves are dangerous (rather than pointing out that the person who died was being an idiot).
Burm clutches range from 12-36 eggs (Wow... low production numbers there Krappy)
Boa constrictors are eight feet long and forty pounds at two years of age.
Later in the same article "5-6' in the first year" and "an additional 3-4' by age two"
Neonate corns eat crickets (There is no distinction made between wild meals of oppurtunity and captive meals of an ideal nature)
Average life span of corns is ten years (I know a number of breeders who need to contact Guinness)
Garters live three years
"Most snakes can hear a person speaking in a normal tone of voice in a quiet room at a distance of about 10 feet (3 m). Two of my snakes have always responded to my calling their names; it's nice to know I wasn't imagining it!" BUUUUUUULLLLSHI... Sorry Rich.


And at this point I've honestly grown a bit bored wandering around her website, giving her hits... In the past few years I've looked at the majority of pages she has posted on anapsid.org and I've read her "Iguanas for Dummies" book, everything she has ever written falls into at least two of the following catagories; Anti-pet trade propaganda, Amazingly inaccurate, plagarized.

I'm frankly sick of hearing excuses made for her as well... "She had to deal with eighty bajillion abandoned iguanas, you'd be bitter too." The fact is, there are hundreds of people in the United States who deal directly with reptile rescue and rehabilitation who do NOT get angry and bitter and anti-pet trade... And despite what seems like high numbers of a few species, the total numbers in proportion to the number kept are nowhere near approaching the problems inherent in dogs and cats. The answer is not legislation which damages everyone's ability, no matter how well educated, to keep these animals... it lies in education about the species, getting the basics out to neophytes in a way that causes them to enter the hobby slowly and get their sea legs before tackling tougher species.

What Kraplan does is NOT education... it's propaganda. I challenge anyone to find more than five pages on her website related to animal care which do not imply in some way that keeping pets is somehow morally wrong... or that petstores are evil... or that reptiles are dangerous or impossible to keep. The rest of the inaccuracies seem, in many cases, almost deliberately placed there to make people think that certain aspects of reptile husbandry are easier than they are in reality... I suspect that this is because when a new keeper reads her information, tries to "train" their iguana and fails... they are more likely to buy into her anti-pet trade messages.

Bottom line... she's a menace to the hobby. She misinforms new keepers (who then need to have the correct information given to them by the rest of us), supports legislation that damages the pet hobby as a whole, makes statements that are damaging to the hobby as a whole (did you know that rack systems are cruel?) and generally supports and endorses everything which every passionate, educated herper is directly opposed to.