Finding Melissa Kaplan

Originally posted by Seamus Haley I'm not going to try and take up a position that Mader is somehow not certain of what he's talking about... BUT, I have also heard the gentleman make comments which are directly opposed to many which Kraplan has made... I doubt the strength of any support which may have been accidently implied at any point.

I assure you that the inclusion of Kaplan's site in lecture handout materials is unlikely to be accidental. It doesn't just slip in there without the lecturer knowing about it. LOL

My lecture notes from ARAV, NAVC and VIN (the latter is an accredited online class, the two former are live annual conferences) have Mader, Hernandez and Divers (or the Hernandez-Divers if you prefer as they got married) referring to Kaplan's site as a resource. My memory has Elliot Jacobson doing it too, but I don't have notes so this could be inaccurate.

This does not necessarily mean that these people agree with every statement on the site, but it does mean that in their professional opinions the site is good enough overall to be a helpful resource for veterinarians and their clients. If you attend Mader's lectures also, ask him directly what he thinks. He is a pleasant and approachable person and easy to talk to.

The only really credible person who actively supports Kraplan in any manner is Adam Briton (spelling? Croc guy) and in doing a bit of investigation, it turns out they work for the same publishing group.

Dr. Britton works for Crocodylus Park, and occasionally he does publish some of his work. I have known Adam for many years (since before he got his degree actually) and he has amply demonstrated during that time that he is not corruptible in the manner in which you are suggesting....even if there was more than a small amount of money involved, which there isn't. Even if the publishing group in question had a secret agenda that they were pressuring other writers with, which does not seem like a plausible scenario to me.

http://www.anapsid.org/ban.html

Which, because of the modifiers to her statements seems okay at first, but she expresses many times on other portions of her site that ALL reptiles and amphibians are "impossible to keep healthy in captivity"

I generally agree with the statements on that page. Abusing reptiles and selling sick reptiles is a bad thing. Perhaps you can also find a page on her site with the direct quote that you are attributing to her?

I am deeply suspicious of anyone who summarizes another person's position in an extremist manner that seems rather exaggerated. I have seen people do that to me in this very thread. I would like to see a web page cited that is on her site that contains the actual words you are quoting.

This, first and foremost is why she is a danger to the hobby, not somebody to be supported in any manner and someone who should be outed to the general public as what she is (mainly a card carrying member of PETA).

Are you stating as a known fact that Ms. Kaplan is a PETA member, or are you making an exaggerated statement for effect?

I'm frankly sick of hearing excuses made for her as well... "She had to deal with eighty bajillion abandoned iguanas, you'd be bitter too." The fact is, there are hundreds of people in the United States who deal directly with reptile rescue and rehabilitation who do NOT get angry and bitter and anti-pet trade...

I'm not sure if bitter is the best way to describe how it feels, at least from my point of view. I am sad and angry and outraged for these animals that have been made to suffer horribly by greedy, careless and ignorant people.

The pet and wildlife trade as it exists today produces an unnecessarily large number of animal casualties. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that some changes need to be made to reduce the toll of death and suffering. A simple rule like no sales of the larger python or lizard species to minors without their parents in attendance AND full disclosure of their adult size and proper dietary needs would help a lot.

The answer is not legislation which damages everyone's ability, no matter how well educated, to keep these animals... it lies in education about the species, getting the basics out to neophytes in a way that causes them to enter the hobby slowly and get their sea legs before tackling tougher species.

I can't agree with that. No matter how hard we try on the education route, we can't reach everyone, and especially we won't affect the people who don't want to listen because their profit margins would be affected. I think that education is definitely important, but enforcement is necessary as well.

Imagine if we had no speed limit and no traffic cops, and just educated everyone that driving too fast and recklessly causes accidents. How safe do you think the highways would be based on education alone? Do you honestly think that everyone can be trusted to just "do the right thing"? I don't, especially if doing it wrong is more convenient, or if they stand to make more money that way.

I suspect that this is because when a new keeper reads her information, tries to "train" their iguana and fails... they are more likely to buy into her anti-pet trade messages.

I suspect you are seeing conspiracies based on simple disagreements. I have successfully "trained" many venomous snakes to simple behavioral responses. They arguably have less brain capacity than an iguana. Some of my colleagues have had even more spectacular successes training crocodilians in complex behaviors. Behavioral management of reptiles is a technique that is currently being taught to professional keepers at AZA zoo schools. I have no qualms at all suggesting behavioral management (eg, "Training") for reptiles. Neither does the AZA.

I think that many of the statements you point out as inaccuracies can reasonably be considered a matter of opinion, except for the average clutch size of a Burmese python. Ball pythons do like to climb given the opportunity, reptiles can habituate to handling (though I would not use the anthropomorphic term "trust"), neonate snakes can be started out on crickets to help stimulate their feeding response (this works particularly well with copperheads in my experience), you can grow a boa up quite rapidly if you feed it enough (though this isn't always a good idea), the average life span of a snake in captivity is likely to be relatively short due to owner ignorance and lack of vet care, and the scientific jury is still out on the vibration-sensing mechanism in snakes.

So I still don't see how Ms. Kaplan is a terrible menace to all reptile keepers. I also don't understand why so many well known and respected reptile researchers make a point of recommending her site to other veterinarians if it is so bad.

One thing I do hear a lot of at zoological and veterinary conferences is anger and contempt towards the private sector. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, or that these professionals are justified in being mad at the entire private sector because they get stuck with the problems created by less responsible private keepers. But for better or worse, the "professional" view is pretty dim when it comes to the pet and wildlife trade. I'm hearing a lot of the "professional" view on Ms. Kaplan's pages.

I think that there is knowledge and resources in the private sector that a lot of zoos could benefit by. Except that they won't, because they keep such a closed minded stance about private keepers. I walk in both worlds, and I can see the problems between them and the points that each side has that are legitimate concerns. I am guessing that Ms. Kaplan has a similar perspective, but that she's more firmly fixed into the "professional" view which tends to put down private keepers.

I guess I need to step into this conversation.

The General BS Forum is not to be used as a way to bypass the rules for posting on the Board of Inquiry. That appears to be the case in this thread, from my casual viewing of it.

As such, much of what is being said is hearsay. If someone has some definite verifiable proof of the allegations made against some of the things Ms. Kaplan has written, then let's see them posted HERE, with links, for people to make up their own minds.

I hope this does not place an undue burden on anyone, but I think it is time to put the rubber to the road instead of just reving your engines and making noise.

"If you will point out specifically the inaccurate information on corn snakes, I will research the question and see whether or not it is true that Kaplan is giving out bad information. But if breeders are saying one thing and reptile medicine experts are saying another, I know whom I will believe."

Fair enough. I would be happy to point out what evidence concerning cornsnakes I know to be wrong from her own website. The examples below range from the silly to the dangerous, but they are all wrong.

She writes:

"Amelanistic corns (those lacking the black and brown skin coloring) are sometimes called "red rat snakes" because of their red-to-orange coloring."

Uh, yeah, that sure sounds like an expert to me!


"There are presently two subspecies of corns, E. g. gutatta and E. g. meahllmorum."

What???


"wild Corns start off feeding on small invertebrates and vertebrates, such as crickets."

Not only does she have NO PROOF of this, because they do not do this (oh the occassional corn neonate MAY attempt to eat cricket, just like the occassional lion cub may eat a grasshopper, but to suggest that this is the norm in any way, is rediculous), but to put this in writing on her care sheet is absolutely irresponsible!

You want to talk about pet stores being bad for herps? I agree with that assessment for the most part. Guess what type of snake is most often found in those shops? Yep, it's corns! Guess what thousands of new owners get told each year about their new babies? That's right -- Cornsnakes eat crickets! Why can they get away with it? Because an "expert" like Ms. Kaplan has such garbage on her website!

Crickets are predatory when they are left in with a neonate cornsnake; they will eat the eyes right off of a baby corn! Further, even if by chance a corn DID try to eat one, the hard exoskeleton, with all of its sharp protrusions, on a cricket serve as a wonderful way to get your baby corn impacted, or having a tear in the unbelievably thin walls of your corn's digestive tract.

Cornsnakes, DO NOT eat crickets, and Ms. Kaplan saying they do does not make it so. For her to have such drivel on her website is absolutely wrong, dangerous, and idiotic, given the amount of quality information that has been available on cornsnakes for YEARS!


"Captive bred ones have become very popular because of all the exotic colors and patterns they "come in". Unfortunately, those morphs are caused by intense inbreeding. As a result, corns are increasingly exhibiting morbitidy and mortality problems as a result of undesireable genes being bred along with the ones for color and pattern. Failure/Inability to feed and sudden, inexplicable death are the two most common problems that have been increasing over that past several years."

All I breed and keep are cornsnakes, and I have some of the most "cutting edge" morphs available in my collection. Because of the nature of morph creation, I can assure you that some of my cornsnakes are as inbred as they can be, but I have experienced NONE of the frailties that she cites, nor has ANYONE ELSE I KNOW! I would love to see just ONE SHRED of evidence on this from her. Tanith, you have rightly asked for evidence to back up our claims about her, why not ask her for the evidence for her claims about our industry???


"An active snake will happily eat every 10 days or so. They will eat, and should only be fed, killed prey."

Ten days is often too long for a hatchling (which most people inexperienced enough to be reading this tripe will have) to go without a meal. It is sometimes the case that a corn hatchling will stop eating, or will regurge a meal, and in thos instances, people often say that one should wait ten days before offering food again. Rich Z. and I have spoken about this before, and he said (and I agree) that a hatchling waiting ten days between meals can often be a recipe for a dead baby corn, because their metabolizm is just too high to go so long without food.

Also, it is often the case that a baby corn will not readily accept pre-killed prey. Live feeding is sometimes the ONLY way to get a reluctant baby to eat. Ms. Kaplan implies that a baby corn WILL always take dead prey, if it is hungry, thereby letting someone think that their baby is not eating because it is not hungry, and it will eat later. Please understand this: Cornsnakes will starve themselves to death for a variety of reasons, and not wanting to take pre-killed prey is one of the most common for young corns!


Tanith, I do not think ill of you in anyway. I respect your desire to help animals through veterinary medicine. My own sister is a Vet, and so I have great respect for the profession. However, I believe that your support of Ms. Kaplan is somewhat misplaced.

Again, I have no way of knowing whether she is a true expert on all of the other animals about which she writes, but I do know about corns. If she, being a self-proclaimed expert, is capable of putting out such absolutely rediculous material about one of the most widely understood species of all, how can I trust ANYTHING she says about any other species???

All citations above were taken from her care sheet on cornsnakes at the following link, which was last updated (according to the site) on December 16, 2002. Nothing was pulled out of context or intentionally misrepresented in any way.

Accept or reject this information as you see fit ...

Darin has giving some very valid concerns regarding husbandry misinformation; the "cricket" rumor is one of the most common that I have addressed in recent years. Any experienced keeper can attest to the fact that young corns simply will not flourish on a 10 day feeding schedule.

Ball pythons, like all pythons and boas, devour a variety of prey in the wild - amphibians, lizards, other snakes, birds and small mammals.

I read this and spent a few hundred on Corn Snakes to feed my Ball Pythons. After they refused all of the corns, I realized this info SHOULD NOT BE ON ANY CARE SHEET.

like all pythons and boas,

Darin,

You have brought up what certainly do appear to be legitimate concerns. I would not suggest that any neonate go 20 days without a meal, which is what could happen if another 10-day waiting period is observed when it rejects food. Even 10 days is really too long for neonates. The problem is that she is not distinguishing between neonates and older, "active" snakes which do indeed benefit from a 10-day feeding cycle. So that's an important piece of information missing from this care sheet. Trying live prey to stimulate neonate feeding response is another good piece of information that is missing from this sheet.

I agree that crickets should be fed with caution because of the potential for them to cause damage to the animal. However they are a very good tool in my experience to stimulate feeding response, and I have used them successfully to help get baby copperheads started. The size of the crickets I use is small enough that the hard exoskeleton is less of a concern, and I always make sure that a slice of fresh potato accompanies the crickets into the cage.

Extrapolating what works best in captivity based on what snakes do in the wild is a difficult business. It is true that snakes can be marvellously opportunistic in the wild and may take a wide range of prey. I agree that this is not necessarily helpful information to put on a care sheet for beginners, even if it is absolutely true. But she also states clearly in the next paragraph that "corns can easily be started on baby mice." She does not seem to be actively recommending cricket feeding, though it is certainly possible that someone may extrapolate this from her comment on their habits in the wild and do some damage to their young corn with adult crickets. However they could do the same from reading the encyclopedia.

Part of the problem here is what the heck do you say to a beginner when the actual facts may confuse them? When my standard tricks with picky young snakes still don't work, I pump feed them with Mazuri carnivorous reptile diet. This is repeated every week (interspersed with more prey offers) for a month or so until they have grown large and strong enough to start taking pinkies on their own. I am not sure I would recommend this tactic to a novice because it is easy to hurt or kill a neonate with assist feeding if you are not very experienced. I solve the dilemma by assuming that anyone taking care of the species I'm writing about (venomous) has advanced enough skills that they can assist feed, so I do recommend it. That isn't a good assumption with corn snake babies though.

As for the problems with snake inbreeding, well, they certainly do exist and there's plenty of proof of that in my freezer. I buy kinked, deformed and nonviable Elaphe neonates from breeders to feed my young king cobras, coral snakes and kraits. My snake-eaters tend to get interestingly colored meals as a byproduct of corn snake breeding. LOL

Overall the information on this care sheet is fairly good, with the single really distressing omission of how to properly feed neonates. The taxonomy is questionable also, as I'm not sure how many people formally recognize meahllmorum, but that isn't a major issue in a care sheet.

Originally posted by realvenum
I read this and spent a few hundred on Corn Snakes to feed my Ball Pythons. After they refused all of the corns, I realized this info SHOULD NOT BE ON ANY CARE SHEET.

Maybe not, but how much can you fault anyone for including information about what a snake species does in the wild? Wild snakes tend to be extreme opportunists, and researchers have found quite a range of things in the stomachs of captured animals.

Dubious prey items such as crayfish, turtles and even human garbage has been found in cottonmouth stomachs in the wild by reseachers. These remarkably tough and adaptable animals will rummage in garbage heaps and attempt to eat old, nasty roadkill. A large part of their diet in the wild consists of frogs, fish and other snakes. Does that mean it is a good idea to feed those things to my captive bred cottons? That's a leap of logic I don't think I'll be taking with my babies.

Cottons are different then Regius. Darn things just wont eat any snake I offer them

So your cotton mouth analogy doesnt make any sence to me Chief.

Tanith,

I believe that you will find relative agreement among experienced breeders that kinks appear to have more to do with incubation temps, or possibly prenatal vitamin deficiencies of the mother, than one could ever definitively associate with genetic links. In fact, I am not aware of kinked snakes being bred to determine any sort of a genetic link. Instead, most breeders simply freeze kinked hatchlings, because they are unwilling to spend two years to prove a hypothesis, especially when those hatchlings may not be sellable due to others' preconceived ideas about "genetically linked kinks."

Even so, you seem to have already made up your mind on Ms. Kaplan. You have every right to do so. But I learned a long time ago that the relief one feels in ceasing the beating of one's head against a rock wall is more than enough motivation to actually stop. So, I now have. Take care!

Originally posted by realvenum Cottons are different then Regius. Darn things just wont eat any snake I offer them

I do not know under what circumstances P. regius has been observed to eat other snakes in the wild, or the species of the snakes they have been observed to eat. However I wouldn't doubt that it has been observed. This does not translate to "all ball pythons will eat all other types of snakes under all conditions."

What snakes do in the wild is not always the same as what they can be expected to do in captivity. Also what they do in the wild to survive is not always the best or healthiest thing you can offer them in captivity. That's pretty much all I was saying.