Albino Ball Python Died!!

Adam

I think you should name the breeder of this very young sold snake, we can already see on this thread some to avoid that feel selling ones a few days old and the stress of a trip/show does not matter to them.

For us that beleive this is dangerous to very young and that want to avoid buying anything from anyone that advocates that, this would be a service and help them avoid problems later on that the animals could have suffered unknown to us.

Even if bought from their locations when the animals are older, we would have no assurance that they had not be exposed to the same situatiuon like transit across county and shows, under less than ideal circumstances PRIOR to us buying them.

People can use their own judgment if they want to deal with someone who practices business like this and feel it is appropriate

Like I said earlier, they can not be held legally responsible, but they can be held ethically responsible by others that feel differently if we know who they are. That makes this post a information post and proper for this board.

That not saying they are at fault, you can not prove that, you are simply saying this person sold reptiles only a few days old under such circumstances and this baby died of gout which is known to take several weeks to become visable(many times too late) and can be caused by stress to too young reptiles, lack of proper temp/fluids and this is an option to avoid the same problem.

This post also serves as an information source to breeders that were not aware that gout can and has develop several weeks later in stressed young snakes who go for even a few days without water and proper temperature. Making it a valuable post to them and their future hatchlings as it informs others of a possbile risk to avoid and they can take measure to assure that does not happen

Adam,

I have been reading this entire thread and I have decided to post. First off, there is NO PROOF in this case that there is a genetic defect. Therefore there is no responsibility for the seller. The animal was outwardly healthy, and showed great health for the months you had the snake. It is a tragedy that the snake perished, but without any proof that there is in fact a genetic flaw, and that the seller/breeder knew about the flaw there is nothing that can be done. Some sellers will honor and give a replacement long after their guarantee is over but that it completely up to the seller/breeder and not the buyer. I can understand how you feel about the snake and the desire to want a replacement but like I said it is the sellers call and not the buyer, partner of the buyer, or a third party like in all of us here at the BOI. I myself have had situations that happened months down the road after making large purchases of animals (animals perished for no apparent reason even after Necropsy) and I did not expect the seller to do anything about it. As far as the Gout situation, a baby ball Python can become dehydrated in a matter of 2 days if the animal is not drinking on its own. Was this snake witnessed drinking on its own all the time? I have seen baby Balls drink without problems for weeks and then all of a sudden decide they do not want to drink from a bowl and require daily misting to ensure they stay fully hydrated. I am not saying this is what happened with your animal but it could be a possibility.

Rob.... I'm SO sorry, buddy.... but, I just CAN'T resist this one.... I just LOVE this line YOU wrote....

...animals perished for no apparent reason even after Necropsy)...

You mean.... they even perished AFTER the necropsy???? (ya think?).... lmao

That was just perfect!... ROFLMAO

But, to get on subject.... you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!.... As I've said from the beginning.... I'm going with the breeder on this one!

OK.... Time to watch the BUCS KICK BUTT!
(27-10, BUCS WIN!)

....Neil

I have to agree with Rob on this one. He makes some great points. Did you witness the animal drinking daily in you care? Most probably not is the honest answer. I have a nice colony of higher end animals and I can honestly say that is my answer and I look in on them every night.

It is highly possible that animal was eating and simply to stressed to drink in your care and developed gout weeks after you got it home. That, in and of itself is not genetic and is not the original breeders fault. Seems kind of hard to pin point what the real cause of the problem was and who is at fault.

The other point I wanted to say, is, when does the responsibility of the animal become the buyers and not the sellers?

In this case, the breeder sold a very young animal in outwardly perfect health and the buyer accepted that fact when they purchased it. I know I give a 30 day no if's, ands or buts return policy. But much after that your on your own. To many things can happen such as this case that can't be linked to the original owner/breeder. You can't prove genetics, you can't prove it didn't have water in his care, you can't prove that it drank enough in your care to not develope gout. When do you feel it is your responsibility to properly care for and keep healthy the animal in your charge and accept full responsibility? When is the seller no longer to blame? Poor husbandry, lack of knowledge, inability to assess problems prior to them becoming fatal, any number of things that are not in the sellers control can ultimately lead to the death of any animal. Not that these are the cases here. But possible.

I am not busting your chops or placing blame on anyone, but simply playing the devils advocate in this one.

When is it no longer the sellers fault?

What you're saying is that if somebody sells an animal. And say this snake has IBD (like gout incurable) and when you get the snake it looks to be in excellent health. You're saying that if it dies two months later because it was sold to you with IBD that the buyer is out the money and the seller has no accountability there?

If you know it came with IBD why wait 2 months. From a sellers perspective, the animal was healthy and fine in his care and suddenly ended up with IBD 2 months later in your care? As a seller I would question that scenario HIGHLY.

On the same accord you're also saying that if a snake is sold to you with some protozoa and needs to be taken to the vet that the buyer is 100% responsible for any costs in bringing the animal back to health?

Depends on what protozoa and when you found it. 2 months later, most likely not. Could have gotten it any number of ways in your care. Very first poop in your care and its positive, yes.

You're all making some very valid points. However, not one of them applies to this situation. Please go to Google.com and do a search on gout in snakes. In doing so you will find the animal died due to a condition over a long period of time and it could not have played out in the 6 weeks the animal was in my care. What happened to my snake has happened 1000s of times over the past 10 years all in animals less then 2 months old.

To drive that point home, a local pet store bought 500 CH balls last year and based their price on a 50% loss. Each and every person that bought one and had it die within a couple months got a replacement snake. In the end 200 of the 500 died. Please before you comment again on this, look into gout and answer based on what you know and not what you think.

I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale. That was not the case with this animal. If you think a little more about this. How many breeders when faced with having a clutch worth $15,000 would decline taking them to the show in favor of their health when faced with that amount of money? I can't answer that and don't say it applies here; I do feel however that many snakes are bred or sold when they shouldn't be based on money.

As for the snakes drinking. I of course can't say it drank each and every day. I will however say I never saw the snake go more then 5 days without taking a dip in it's water dish.

Adam Block

Adam.... sorry, pal.... but, in this instance, you are way out of line.... YOU have NO CLUE how that animal got gout.... I don't care what ANY book says.... you might know what causes it, in MOST instances, BUT NOT THIS ONE!.... You have no right at all to blame the breeder for this one.... NONE!!.... Where is your PROOF??.... It just goes to prove my point, in the very beginning of this thread, as far as your MOTIVES were.... There is no way in hell that YOU will take ANY BLAME for this, will you??.... I'm sure there's absolutely NOTHING that you could have done for this to happen???.... Obviously.... it HAS TO BE THE DEALER.... right???.... WRONG!!.... You are coming up with the biggest load of crap to TRY and persuade YOURSELF.... you're certainly NOT persuading us.... You KNOW he had the snake for a very short time.... yet, YOU bought it anyway??.... Caveat Emptor.... and you've been doing this for TWENTY YEARS???.... YOU should have known better!.... Don't, for one minute, blame the breeder for this.... why is YOURS the only one that died from that clutch??.... Crap happens.... sometimes you just have to live with it, and mark it off to experience.... I bet the next time, you're probably going to ask for a HEALTH guarantee of some sort.... which is all fine and good.... had you asked for one this time, you MIGHT not be in this situation.... of course, I STILL don't know ANY dealer or breeder who is going to guarantee the health of their animals for 2 MONTHS???.... Do you??

....Neil

OK Adam, I did as you suggested and came with this;

GOUT IN REPTILES


by
Edward M. Craft
Gout is a condition that is commonly presented in reptiles that are fed a diet that is high in the wrong type of proteins. Proteins are an important part of the diet for all animals, to include reptiles. Not all proteins are the same, there are animal proteins and there are plant proteins. The particular type of protein that a specific species requires is based on whether or not a reptile is carnivorous, insectivorous or herbivorous.

Carnivorous and insectivorous reptiles require proteins that are derived from animal and insects, while herbivorous reptiles require proteins derived only from plants. Providing a reptile with the wrong type of protein may have serious long-term results that may eventually lead to gout. This is commonly seen in iguanas that are fed a diet high in animal proteins while they are young to increase their growth rate. As the iguana grows and becomes older they begin to suffer from illnesses that are directly related to a diet of inappropriate proteins early on in life.

Gout is not a condition that typically presents itself overnight; there are exceptions to this rule, as we will see later on. This condition is usually develops slowly over a long period of time. There are three forms of gout that may effect reptiles, visceral, articular and pariarticular. These three forms of gout may be broken down into two basic classifications, primary and secondary. The primary classification occurs when uric acid in the blood is present as monosodium urate. When uric acid and uric salts are present in high amounts in the bloodstream the condition is referred to as hyperuricemia. To put it simply, hyperuricemia is the overproduction of uric acid and uric salts. This overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect. When this occurs it is classified as primary gout.

Secondary gout is also caused by hyperuricemia, but it is usually the result of a chronic disease or the side effects of drugs used in treating other illnesses. Chronic diseases that may effect uric acid levels leading to secondary gout in reptiles are renal disease and starvation. Metabolic disorders may also play a role in the development of gout.

Since most reptiles suffer from secondary gout it is usually the result of a poor diet and a lack of a clean and fresh water supply, which helps to flush excess uric acids from the body. Temperature and humidity are also very important in the disease process of reptiles, particularly in species that receive most of their water requirements from the moisture in the air.

As stated earlier, gout may be the result of another illness or drug. For this reason it is important to understand that determining the presence of gout may be difficult. Radiographs of the joints may show lytic lesions, but the best method for determining its presence in reptiles is to obtain a sample of the fluid in the joints in order to look for the presence of monosodium urate crystals.

Anytime a reptile is suffering from an illness involving the renal system, gout should always be considered. The same is true when a reptile is being treated for an illness with a drug that is known to have the potential for effecting the renal system. Remember that it is the secondary classification that is commonly presented in reptiles, which means that the signs and symptoms of this condition will most likely not be presented by themselves. In most cases this illness will be masked by the symptoms of a disease involving the renal system. Treatment of gout in reptiles is very poorly understood, as is the condition itself. Most treatment methods currently available for reptiles have been based on those of humans that suffer from this condition. Antihyperuricemic and uricouric drugs are used to treat the gout itself, while anti-inflammatory drugs and corticosteriods are used to treat the associated arthritis attacks.

Successful diagnosis and treatment of this condition may be very difficult and recovery rates in reptiles are very low. One of the reasons for this is that by the time the condition is diagnosed it has been present for a long period of time and is usually very well progressed. For this reason it is very important to prevent the illness by providing a proper diet with the right type of proteins throughout all life stages and to ensure a fresh, clean water supply is always available.

And

I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale.

Simply stated, prove it. Prove he knowingly sold a sick animal and your freind got dooped into buying it.

Based on the article I posted there are two distinct possibilities on this case.

1) the seller did something wrong
or
2) the buyer did something wrong

The seller is in the postion that the animal was alive, thriving, and outwardly healthy at the time of the transaction. So was the buyer or I hope he wouldnt have bought it. The Buyer is out money 2 months later and looking for compensation.

But again, when is it no longer the sellers fault?
1 week, 1 month, 2 months, 5 years, when does the sellers responsibility end?

Wait Neil!!! It's only half time and Tampa Bay has a history of losing it in the last quarter :P But I think this time they may pull it off.. keeping finger crossed!

LOL your also a bit excited and its showing on your post.

I don't think Adam started this thread for any reason other than trying to find info if anyone else had the same problems with like pythons from the Daytona show or what MAY have contributed to it. He's not named the breeder, or made it a bad guy post, he was seeking information or inquiring, which I understand is allowed on this board, not just complaints or applauds of breeders.

Did I miss where this was the only one in the clutch that died? Has the dealer stated that?

I agree, its a Caveat Emptor situation and there is no recourse, but to inform the seller this happen, what happens after that is totally within his hands and the law is on his side in it.

BUT... even without naming the breeders, this post was informative and I think appropriate for BOI. People reading it are learning of a common problem in young pythons and how to avoid it. Hopefully also being leery in the future to buy snakes under a certain age and avoid those dealers that sell them without that consideration. Breeders can see potential problems with transport and shows and take actions to avoid them.

As far as Adam's contributon to the demise of the baby python in his care, although possible, very unlikely as it takes several weeks for damage to show up in their system and die from it.

I am not sure this thread was looking to blame anyone, but to inquire and inform and I think it has done both.

Neil - I think you are getting a bit carried away. This is a discussion, so stop trying to turn it into an argument. Your posts are a perfect example of what I have been hearing scares off some people about posting on the BOI. And I want it to cease, NOW.

I believe Adam's posts have been logically presented and he has done an admirable job of keeping emotions out of his postings. Something I think you would do well to take notes on. IMHO.

So make your factual statements as well as opinions, but leave the emotion and flames on your side of the keyboard, please.

OK.... Rich....

....Neil