Albino Ball Python Died!!

Neil, because you have a lack of regard for the posting of other and showing no signs of reading them I will not respond to your statements as they have no foundation in what I've laid out or said not to mention they are way off base on my motive. If you would like to take the time to read my posts again and respond to my statements with out your assumptions I would be happy to address your questions or issues. Until that time I thank you for your responses however you are very obviously missing something major. I will lay those points out for a few of your comments so as to keep you from scratching your head.

There is no way in hell that YOU will take ANY BLAME for this, will you??....

You must have missed the following: I feel that puts 65% plus of the money loss on myself and is very fair to us both.

[quote]You KNOW he had the snake for a very short time.... yet, YOU bought it anyway??.... /[quote]

Again you must have missed the following: This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

why is YOURS the only one that died from that clutch??....

Yet again Neil you must have missed the following: If you’ve had a snake die in a similar manner/situation I would very much like to hear about it. As I said this post is meant to bring out the facts and go from there if there is in fact anything else that needs to be addressed.

had you asked for one this time, you MIGHT not be in this situation....

And again: I was assured that I was getting a healthy animal free of any troubles

of course, I STILL don't know ANY dealer or breeder who is going to guarantee the health of their animals for 2 MONTHS???....

Again: I offer a 6-month promise on my snakes so my customers know they will be doing well. This covers a genetic issue as well as poor feeding, biting or anything else.

Neil, your posts are always very well put together but being a big dealer and considering the volume of snakes you sell this post may hit a little too close to home for you to look at it objectively. You have made it very clear that you are not reading anything I post only responding with the same thing each time. We have heard from you and your points and feelings on this are clear. However I ask that if you’re not willing to take the time to read the posts then please stop responding to this thread. I’m trying very hard to have more respect for Rich and his goals with this site and there is no way I’m going to let this turn into a name calling session. If I can’t keep my emotion out of a post then I will not make it from now on.

Some of your quotes are also very contradicting to what you’re saying here. I will point out the following just to see where it is that you do stand on this however I have a feeling this post will in large be ignored by you. The first two go against what you’re saying about who is in question. There is doubt here for sure and I’m willing to accept 65% of that. The rest I believe falls on the breeder.

Here are those quotes:

There are times in this biz when you just have to bite the bullet and do the right thing.... even if it means you lose money.…

when in doubt, side with the customer!.... You will be a HERO in their eyes!

And you wonder why I DON'T say negative things about some of the other places that help me make a living??.... I won't cut off my nose to spite my face....

Yes, Dave did sell me 10 large WC Balls for $5 each....I sell them in my store ONLY.... I have NEVER posted Ball Pythons (with one "Melting Ball" exception) on ANY forum!! They're not worth it! I tell EVERYONE that wants one in the store that they ARE WC...The one's that have eaten...we sell first...the one's that haven't eaten, I tell them! Angie tells them!
I also have about 25 CH babies in the store....I explain to everyone what captive "hatched" means...

The last two I think show that you’re a big reptile dealer and wouldn’t side with a buyer because you ultimately see it as something that could cost you money.

With the very last quote what I want to know is? Of the 35 animals listed above, 25 of them coming into direct question regarding this exact issue. How many have died and are you also saying that because you’ve warned them they take the loss and you would be totally unwilling to refund or replace any of those dead animals? That to me looks very bad and is what you’ve implied so far.

Adam Block

Here are a few excerps I have found on a few pages on

gout in reptiles

from google.com.

In secondary gout, the high level is due to the inability of the kidneys to adequately excrete the uric acid. This can be caused by medications, chronic diseases, kidney disease, starvation, improper diet, decreased water intake or chronic dehydration, and other environmental factors which affect the kidneys' ability to eliminate uric acid.

With reptiles, environmental factors are most often implicated in gout leading to renal failure, especially chronic dehydration, diet, and suboptimum temperatures for the species

Renal and visceral gout also has been seen in reptiles where there is no previous history of drug therapy or exposure to toxicologic agents. This condition has been seen sporadically in crocodilians and is due to an accumulation of uric acid at multiple extrarenal sites. Appleby and Seller (1960) reported on an alligator of unknown age which had extensive uric acid deposits in the epicardium. I have seen visceral gout in juvenile farm-reared American alligators. Visceral gout may be either primary, resulting from excess protein catabolism or secondary, caused by renal failure, or dehydration (Frye 1981). Visceral gout is occasionally seen in young alligators which are fed maximally (Coulson et al 1973). If alligators ingest protein and digest it faster than amino acids can be removed by protein synthesis, nitrogen from unused amino acids is converted into either ammonia or uric acid. In maximally fed alligators which developed visceral gout, paralysis was seen to occur first in the front legs and later in the back legs, and they would eventually die if they continued to feed. If alligators were fasted for one week after appearance of the first signs of paralysis, all recovered quickly.

As I said before there is absolutely no proof that there is any genetic flaw, or that the Breeder did something wrong. It really sucks that the animal perished but there is nothing you can do about it with the breeder. Sorry Adam.

Adam,

I hope you continue on your quest for information. I have been keeping up with this post and find it very informative.
As someone who is possibly in the near future going to get a snake, I would not hesitate talking with and buying one from you.
Just by your posts you seem knowledgable and willing to learn and above all a business man who cares not only for the snakes he sells but the customer as well.


Rozann Lamont

Rozann, thank you very much! Just don't have me ship you any dry goods (I've now stopped selling them). I'm such a slow shipper when the P.O. is involved that it's become almost a joke.

Adam Block

I usually would never want to get into a discussion on the BOI since I am a total reptile novice with only a year of keeping under my belt. But the point that comes to my mind is that if the snake was healthy enough in appearance for your friend to purchase, and then did seemingly well for two months, then how could the breeder possibly know that he was not selling a healthy snake? (IF indeed the snake developed gout in the breeder's care.) Of course he couldn't unless there had been a history of it in his colony.

You said, "I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale. That was not the case with this animal."

How do you know? The animal MUST have been outwardly healthy if your friend laid down $2500 for it. Did the friend who purchased the snake give it water on the way BACK from the show? How do you know it didn't contract gout at that point? This thread is a great heads-up, but I feel that you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was genetic or the breeder's fault. That fact another of the same breeder's snakes died this way may be a simple coincidence. Just beacuse two brothers grow up to be alcoholics, it doesn't necessarily mean they carry the gene that predisposes them to become a drunk.

Very sorry about your loss

Janie

Adam,

Ok I have a few questions for you. First you say your reason for posting was to decide which way to go with this situation. Well the way to go seems clear to me. It is not the Breeders responsibilty and the consensus is just that.
Second, you have been stating that you offer a 6 month guarantee on your animals right?

Again: I offer a 6-month promise on my snakes so my customers know they will be doing well. This covers a genetic issue as well as poor feeding, biting or anything else.

well this next quote if direct from your Web page.

I'm so confidant that you will be happy with your purchase from IMPACT Reptiles that I'll give you a full refund (refund applys to cost of snakes only) within the first three months if you are not (Snakes must be shipped back to me alive and in good health).

That is not exactly 6 months to me. Hell 3 months is a great guarantee but why stretch the truth and try to convince everyone that you offer 6 months?

Another thing. What is this charging extra to guarantee live arrival? (Direct from your web page)

You are responsible for all shipping costs at a charge of $39.00 (liability assumed by you). Because of this I'm willing to guarantee live arrival for a surcharge of 20%.

I am confused how you can sit here and try to make it sound like this breeder/seller in responsible for this animal when it was in all appearances HEALTHY and was Healthy enough for your partner to purchase it and you do not even offer the Guarantee of live arrival on your own animals? I am sorry that this is a little off the subject but it all falls into the same grey area. It really seems to me that you are not really wanting the information and thoughts of others on here to decide which way to go, but rather hoping someone will agree with your side so you can try to get a replacement animal. I am sorry but this does not jive with me.

Rob, what you failed to mention in the quotes you supplied is that you were talking about secondary gout. Defiend as:

Secondary gout is also caused by hyperuricemia, but it is usually the result of a chronic disease or the side effects of drugs used in treating other illnesses. Chronic diseases that may effect uric acid levels leading to secondary gout in reptiles are renal disease and starvation. Metabolic disorders may also play a role in the development of gout.

This does not apply here as the snake was free of any disease and was feeding. The situation your speaking of is something that takes time and wouldn't be seen in a 2 month old snake.

What does apply from that same link is this:

Gout is not a condition that typically presents itself overnight; there are exceptions to this rule, as we will see later on. This condition is usually develops slowly over a long period of time. There are three forms of gout that may effect reptiles, visceral, articular and pariarticular. These three forms of gout may be broken down into two basic classifications, primary and secondary. The primary classification occurs when uric acid in the blood is present as monosodium urate. When uric acid and uric salts are present in high amounts in the bloodstream the condition is referred to as hyperuricemia. To put it simply, hyperuricemia is the overproduction of uric acid and uric salts. This overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect. When this occurs it is classified as primary gout.

I'm not saying that is the case. However, because it is far more likely I feel my request of a snake valued at 35% of the one that died leaving 65% of that doubt on myself is more then fair.

I think this quote from that link also applies:

Successful diagnosis and treatment of this condition may be very difficult and recovery rates in reptiles are very low. One of the reasons for this is that by the time the condition is diagnosed it has been present for a long period of time and is usually very well progressed. For this reason it is very important to prevent the illness by providing a proper diet with the right type of proteins throughout all life stages and to ensure a fresh, clean water supply is always available.

Adam Block

I believe the point that everyone seems to be missing is that it is not a good practice (for the snakes) to sell right out of the egg. If you ask me, the gout isn't so much the issue here, as much as the selling of the snake mere days after it hatched. How many of you are willing to ship a snake that is ten days old? This may not be the best comparison, but I think it is fairly accurate to describe the stress of being taken to a show. No, he cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the breeder's fault, but does that mean that it can't be the breeder's fault? How many of you feel alright about selling a two week old snake? I'm not a snake person, but I don't sell my dragons until they are six weeks old or six inches long, whichever comes last. IMO, there is enough of an indication that the breeder is at fault that if it were me, I would replace the snake.

Good point Rob. I don't put a time frame on that in all honesty. I take it on a case by case and for a very long time it was six. That was my slip as I must have changed that last time I updated that section. Either way that isn't set in stone and I would bake my snakes and stand behind them for live depending on the situation.

As for the guarantee of live arrival. That is something I do offer however it is not something that FedEx offers and the quote you posted is addressing shipping, the snake I'm talking about was bought at the show and wasn't shipped. My charge on that is insurance and that idea came from the man himself, Rich Z.

Agree with me or not has nothing to do with it. I would have rather not had any of these responces as this post was about finding information and has gotten off topic. This breeder is far too hard headed to replace the snake and from what I hear would cut his arm off long before he would say he may have done somehting wrong. Be that the case or not I'm looking for infomation and not a debate as the dollar amount of the snake is fairly small and was one of the least costly snakes bought over the past few months. It's the point and the breeder actions not the cost in this case.

Adam Block

Primary and Secondary in this case are not designations made because of the likelihood of their occurring but rather the source of the difficulty...

In a very small amount of research on the subject, combined with a few of the posts other have made here, it seems as if Secondary gout is a far more common condition than anything with a genetic basis... I have also found wildly varying lengths of time listed for the duration it takes for secondary gout to become lethal if untreated, Adam had the snake for a significant enough period of time that the condition could have easily evolved while it was in his care...

This is one of those situations where it's an impossibility to determine the exact cause of the condition and as such, blame can not be placed on any of the parties involved. Since it's apparently well outside of the guarantee period, this leaves the buyer S.O.L. in this instance, especially when statistically, it seems more likely that the condition developed after the animal had been purchased.

The request for 35% of the snake's value in trade or as a refund is absurd Adam, there's no proof that they created any condition which led to the animal's demise- but it had been in your care for a fairly respectable period of time when it occurred, guess who a court would side with.

And Neil... you were way off, 48-21 was a much nastier beating than you predicted.