Trans x trans?

Hey everyone,
I saw on an ad that said you cant breed a trans to a trans? Otherwise the offspring die. This is news to me in all of my experiance. I do not haven any trans I only have 2 hets so let me know what you think?
THanks guys

http://www.reptilerooms.com/forums/l...hp/t58022.html

This link has lots of info. From what I've read, it isn't the Trans/Trans pairings that mess up the offspring. It's the constant inbreeding of the morph that gives the deformities. When they were first being produced people were inbreeding them like crazy thinking they would be able to produce more of and better Trans. but in the end they ended up with deformed and dead babies.

Hope this helps, correct me if I'm wrong. It's just what I've read from that link.

-Nichole

Thats what I thought People have breeding trans together all the time, anyone else have an oppinion?

I think the main reason for most people avoiding a Trans/Trans pair is to strengthen the genetics of the morph. Sort of like fixing what the creators did with all the inbreeding and such. This is why I personally won't be doing Trans/Trans pairing until there is more information.

-Nichole

Here's a better "break down"....

They all come from the same place and the same founding line. The first
time they appeared was in a clutch of them that hatched in England in 2001
(might have been 2002, but I am sure it was not before. That clutch had two
translucent in it, with the other siblings being het for trans That entire
clutch was purchased by Sandfire Ranch, as all the babies (and parents) were
hets for future breeders. The English breeder sold sibling clutches to
people in Europe and the US both before and after those 2 babies appeared.
So these also were het, but sometimes not known yet and not displaying the
trait. This is where the other suppose lines came from, but they all
originated from the same parents. the English breeder, Sandfire from both
clutched sold before and after the trans appeared.

A few breeders had these pop up in their clutches in 2001-2003.. But, they
all originated from Sandfire Ranch OR the original English Breeders line (so
the same RELATED line).

Another breeder (Leaping Lizards) had two hatch out in a clutch of theirs,
the parents where from Sandfire Ranch. They called them lavender dragons or
midnight dragons, only because no one knew what they were as the name
translucent was not being used yet. One died fairly soon after hatching, I
am not sure about the other one, but the owner Connie said it was very
sickly, very genetically weak, they are no longer around to contact and
clarify info from and I have not seen them at shows for the past two years
to know if it survived or was bred. But they were the first to show a photo
of a translucent and if someone wants to see it and the proof of the year
they can email me off list. They sold the siblings as regular dragons, as
they thought the others were just weak defective dragons, but again the
dragons were hets.

Sundial had one hatch also and they kept it, it has survived and they also
sold the other siblings as regular dragons. The owner of that states "Dana
Pennebaker of Sundial: I would have no way of isolating the trait without
doing some in breeding back to parents or sibling inbreeding. We are not
planning on doing so."Again, that makes their parent dragons hets and all
the offspring they produce are hets also, but few would realize that as you
seeing nothing different from the babies.

So, as you can see from just these dragons, there were many hets out there
from 2002-2003, but all from the same place originally. Naturally more
started hatching to other breeders from the unknown hets, but few survived
long or they were so weak they were not bred. Of the entire clutch of hets
Sandfire Ranch bought, they (or their Representative breeders) bred 1/2 to
their Sandfire line and 1/2 to their Hypo line in 2002-2003, then in
2003/2004 they bred those hets back to each other for the first pairing of
het to het. So any offspring from either group had the same grandparents
and the parents of both groups were siblings. There has not been enough time
for there to be translucent being sold that are not a result in inbreeding.
Inbreeding is defined as breeding two related species with the 5th degree of
relationship

Paul Morlock who was the East coast breeder for Sandfire Ranch and Josh who
was the West Coast breeder for them both stated that the offspring that
showed the trait, were weaker than the hets, some did not survive, some were
put down by the breeders, its called culling and the first time I heard this
in relationship to bearded dragons was when I was told they were having to
cull the babies that were hatching from the crossings by one of the main
breeder of them as they were too weak, they would not give them away as they
were afraid people would still try and breed them, affecting the price that
they could get forthe hets that appeared healthy..... that stinks I think,
but its a fact.

Cull: to reduce or control the size of (as a herd) by removal (as by
hunting) of especially weaker animals; also : to hunt or kill (animals) as a
means of population control

Now you have some breeders that are only breeding the trans to make hets, so
they will not have trans for sale as you can not produce them from a non het
paring, but you can make a percentage of the clutches be het that way... and
healthy. I know one is Randy from AlphaDragonZ and to the best of my
knowledge he has not crossed and trans to trans. and is only making hets to
strengthen the gene pool and he has some healthy nice ones already.

If someone told you that there are trans for sale that are not inbreed, then
either they are not being truthful or they do not know that they are all
from the same parent dragons a few generations back, the dragons from
England.... as that is the only place they came from.... if someone imported
one to the US and then breed it to a Sandfire line dragon, they are still
related. I can see that happening and know that it has as I know a breeder
that made the same mistake and did not know there were related, they were
told they were not. There is now DNA testing available that does not cost
that much and I suggest that nyone thinking of breeding these, that does not
want to believe me, have that done, I know of two people that have and
surprise...... the dragons were related.... very closely related. There has
not been the time, even if bred when they are underage, (which many have
also) to have produced unrelated hets past the 5th generation to not be
inbreeding

That is not saying that all breeder selling trans are purposely inbreeding
them, they may very well not know they are as what happened to a breeder in
Florida and PA, they were told that the lines they bought were not related,
DNA testing showed there were........ VERY close. If someone can show you
proof that dragons are not related withinhe inbreeding degrees, I would love
to see it, as it is impossible for the known history of them that is only 5
years old as it is.

I did not post this to upset anyone, but so people know what they are
breeding and buying, with the limited geen pool of bearded dragons, it is
vital that inbreeding be avoided or if there is the possibility that someone
is inbreeding and not knowing t, they be made aware of it and given the
opportunity to verify it. I am sure than some people will take this
personally that own, are breeding or plan on breeding these, but that is not
my intent and I am sorry if it upsets someon, or that they are in a position
it might upset them

CheriS
www.reptilerooms.com

http://www.mombu.com/reptiles/reptil...1491-last.html

Yes, much better. Thanks.

Thank you very much for this post !!!
Well done

I've read and heard that it's a BIG no no to do so, but never has it been broken down for me as to why

I am certain there are some folks that have more to say on this subject that have actual experience with it instead of quoting posts that are 4-5 years old.

Yeah it would be nice to hear from someone with experience. Anything up to date would be nice.