Smoothies

Originally Posted by Denisebme

Well, I haven't called you brainwashed or a spokesperson, but then I don't consider myself part of a "mob" either.
Since I do know something about genetics, particularly genetic disorders, I'll confine my answer to what I know.
I was born missing thumbnails. Not a huge thing, right? My mom didn't have thumbnails, neither did my sisters. Since my family was undiagnosed at the time, we just thought it was a weird family thing.
As we grew up, we noticed other small things, like our kneecaps were not like other peoples, and our arms didn't straighten all the way. Again, not a big deal, but more bothersome than a simple lack of a couple nails.
Then we grew up and started having kids, and our kids had it too, some born with more serious issues. Then we finally got diagnosed as having a genetic issue. Not one that was created by someone trying to create a new kind of person, it was naturally occurring, but it was a problem.
Now, it turns out that this genetic disorder causes problems everywhere, Missing nails, badly formed joints, missing or misplaced connective tissue, early onset osteoarthritis, open angle glaucoma, and kidney disease, all because our bodies don't process collagen correctly during development. My mother was 56 when the kidney disease took her life.
Its never as simple as breeding OUT scales. What are scales made of and what happens during development when you inhibit their growth? The scales themselves are made of Keratin, fairly essential to a well working bone and connective tissue system. What else does this effect besides scales?
I don't think that experimentation just for the sake of experimentation is always a good idea, not in an industry that has no controls to protect the animals from unethical types of it. This particular genetic experiment is less than a year old, so who knows what problems besides the thin, fragile skin are going to pop up.
Also, at this time, artificial insemination techniques with reptiles is very rare even in real laboratory settings. These people creating this morph are NOT scientists, so what experience do they have with a technique that is only being attempted by veterinary researchers?

Denise, I'm sorry to hear about your genetic disorder. Trust me, I understand the wrath of genes gone bad. Two out of three of my children inherited a life-threatening allergy from their paternal grandfather. They can't and don't live what would be considered a normal life for a child. They will go into anaphylactic shock and possibly die if they eat, touch, or breath too much of anything containing peanuts. They require special care and serious precautions, and cannot participate in all of the same activites as normal children. Along with the peanut allergy comes the eczema and asthma. It is all linked together, and we have to make changes in their enviromnent for them to be at optimum health. But even with their genetic "flaws" they are happy, healthy children.

Trust me, I too wonder if other problems could be tied in with the "no more scales" gene. Maybe there is something terrible, and maybe there is not. Maybe there is something minor that could be fixed with small changes in husbandry. Maybe there is something terrible that would justify never breeding to create silkbacks again. I don't know - you don't know - and I doubt if the people that bred this animal really know at this time. But I ask this - why not give it a chance and see what happens? If there have not been problems with the animal so far (as I have been told) then why not go forward with breeding?

And pulling the "Steve card" is not fair. He is not here to voice his opinion, so let's not think for him.

Jamie

Originally Posted by JimD

As far as I know, no one is pushing this new morph at anyone. I agree that a lot of people dont like it and think its wrong. A lot like it too.
Its like with Ball pythons. There are many problems with them but people still love them and want to be the first one to create a "new morph".
A lot is brought up about how these would never survive in the wild. They would never see the wild so why bring that up. We have albino everything now and that for sure would not make it in the wild. You need to be carefull with how much UV albinos get also.

I'm not pushing the silks to anyone. Those who want one will search for themselves. You like it or you dont.Easy. I do think its cool that it has been proven that we now have co-dom and super forms of dragons.

Jim

Oh Jim, back to genetics. What makes this a "super form" of dragon? There is nothing unusual genetically about co-dominant traits. Two parents with curly hair that have a curly haired child is a natural expression of co-dominance and us curly haired folks aren't super forms of the human race.
This is the perfect example of a little education going a long way. You're throwing out phrases like "co-dominant" and "super form" like they mean something they don't.

Hello,

Oh pulling the "Steve" card is more than fair. We did get our original ancestors from his native country. This is how we are treating them? I would actually hate to hear what he would have to say to us here in America. Someone has to be advocates for animals, he sure was. He expects no less from all of us. That is what his hopes & dreams were of all of us, were to preserve & take care of animals, just as he did. His work needs to continue on there as well as here & over the world.


Tracie

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Denise, I'm sorry to hear about your genetic disorder. Trust me, I understand the wrath of genes gone bad. Two out of three of my children inherited a life-threatening allergy from their paternal grandfather. They can't and don't live what would be considered a normal life for a child. They will go into anaphylactic shock and possibly die if they eat, touch, or breath too much of anything containing peanuts. They require special care and serious precautions, and cannot participate in all of the same activites as normal children. Along with the peanut allergy comes the eczema and asthma. It is all linked together, and we have to make changes in their enviromnent for them to be at optimum health. But even with their genetic "flaws" they are happy, healthy children.

Trust me, I too wonder if other problems could be tied in with the "no more scales" gene. Maybe there is something terrible, and maybe there is not. Maybe there is something minor that could be fixed with small changes in husbandry. Maybe there is something terrible that would justify never breeding to create silkbacks again. I don't know - you don't know - and I doubt if the people that bred this animal really know at this time. But I ask this - why not give it a chance and see what happens? If there have not been problems with the animal so far (as I have been told) then why not go forward with breeding?

And pulling the "Steve card" is not fair. He is not here to voice his opinion, so let's not think for him.

Jamie

Jamie, if you understand the wrath of genes gone bad, then you should understand the concern here.
if you ever have a chance to talk to a geneticist, ask him or her what happens when the bodies natural system lacks the ability to process Keratin or collagen correctly during development because both of these natural elements are critical in the correct development of bone and connective tissue. If this were people we were talking about that scientists were monkeying with, someone would end up in jail.
Its acceptable here to some because they are "just animals", they can't talk, they can't tell us what they think, but we know that they can not or should not participate in certain activities, natural species activities, because those activities will pose a risk to them. Is it still a good idea?
I didn't play the "Steve" card, but as long as its out there, Steve Irwin was a conservationist dedicated to preservation of natural species, it be sort of foolish to think he would support this sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

Oh pulling the "Steve" card is more than fair. We did get our original ancestors from his native country. This is how we are treating them? I would actually hate to hear what he would have to say to us here in America. Someone has to be advocates for animals, he sure was. He expects no less from all of us. That is what his hopes & dreams were of all of us, were to preserve & take care of animals, just as he did. His work needs to continue on there as well as here & over the world.


Tracie

You know what Tracie? Why don't we ALL just stop breeding, selling, and buying dragons then. Because I guarantee you that there are FAR worse things out there than creating a new morph of dragon. Like all the people out there that take crappy care of their animals. I personally think that forcing a dragon to live with starvation, wrong food choices, wrong temperatures, and various other mistreatments that I am sure THOUSANDS of dragons across the U.S. are subjected to daily is MUCH worse. I am growing tired of this argument. Why don't we spend our time helping others to better care for their dragons than spending time bitching at each other. I'm done for now. I'm going to go help some dragons!

Jamie

I'm not sure what you dont understand Denise but here goes. Ill use Ball Pythons to show you.
Albinos are created by both parents having the Recessive gene
Spiders are dominant, breeding them to a normal should result in a 50/50 of babies. When you breed a spider to a spider, all babies are spiders, no "super form"
Pastels are Co-dominant, breeding a pastel to a normal results are 50/50 of babies. Breeding a pastel to a pastel results in a "super Pastel'
That is what i was saying.
Did I answer your question?

Jim

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

You know what Tracie? Why don't we ALL just stop breeding, selling, and buying dragons then. Because I guarantee you that there are FAR worse things out there than creating a new morph of dragon. Like all the people out there that take crappy care of their animals. I personally think that forcing a dragon to live with starvation, wrong food choices, wrong temperatures, and various other mistreatments that I am sure THOUSANDS of dragons across the U.S. are subjected to daily is MUCH worse. I am growing tired of this argument. Why don't we spend our time helping others to better care for their dragons than spending time bitching at each other. I'm done for now. I'm going to go help some dragons!

Jamie

So by all means create more, not to mention more fragile ones, so that they can be mistreated too. This makes no sense, you say you understand genetic anomalies but I don't think you are very empathetic to them. I have a son (granted, they haven't proven this is genetic yet) that is severely Autistic and his life is a daily challenge, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. To knowingly play around with genetics is morally wrong, no matter what the species.
JimD wrote

Its like with Ball pythons. There are many problems with them but people still love them and want to be the first one to create a "new morph".

And this makes it right? Just because other people think it's ok, that makes it right? Some people thinks it's ok to smoke crack...should we all run out and buy some? Didn't your mother ever say to you "if they were to jump off a bridge, would you?"


In my opinion, the people who are "conducting these studies" have too much at stake here.....their reasoning for creating this mutation to begin with is suspicious and shouldn't be trusted to report any info on them and that includes the dude in Italy. When I see PhD behind their names, then I'll start to trust, until then they should just go back to doing what every other uneducated breeder does. In other words, quit poking your nose where it doesn't belong. Or, if it's that important to you, go to school and become a scientist....that way you can make informed decisions based on facts, not greed.

Originally Posted by JimD

I'm not sure what you dont understand Denise but here goes. Ill use Ball Pythons to show you.
Albinos are created by both parents having the Recessive gene
Spiders are dominant, breeding them to a normal should result in a 50/50 of babies. When you breed a spider to a spider, all babies are spiders, no "super form"
Pastels are Co-dominant, breeding a pastel to a normal results are 50/50 of babies. Breeding a pastel to a pastel results in a "super Pastel'
That is what i was saying.
Did I answer your question?

Jim

Jim, I'm well aware of how albinos are created, spiders and pastels also. What you seemed to be saying in your previous post is that this Beardie cross resulted in a super FORM of animal, and that simply means a lack of understanding of basic genetics.
So, just to make sure I'm really clear on your post, what you're saying is that you think its cool to exploit genetic characteristics that significantly impact the animals ability to live a natural life in captivity? Remember, we aren't talking about color traits or the expression of pigments, we're talking about the forced suppression by intentional breeding of keratin. In case you are unaware of how reptile skin works, I'll provide you a link:
Basic Dermatology

Some words are hard to interpret, but most can be made out. I found this on a German forum. I will see if they will respond here also.



hello
I at using the A Web translator, so maybe I have misunderstood some OF the discussion. But I would like tons explain something about thesis animals and I wants pleased ton to who any question. The only problem is that I DO emergency speak German. I try ton to who ton some dubt that I have seas.
It' s inbreeding: NO it is emergency imbreeding, is A casul gene TIC mutation. silkback is A super form OF leatherback (like pastel in ball python). I explain steps by steps. The roofridge leatherback appeared in 1 CROSS (only 1 baby which showing this trait). Incoming goods have crossed this with A normally one and the result which 50% normally and 50% leatherback. Incoming goods create incoming goods then in different years different LINEs OF leatherback crossed bake leatherback x leatherback. The result which 25% superleatherback (named silkback), 50% leatherback, 25% normally.
burn their skin into the sun? NO they DO emergency burn, I have tried ton of PUT them on the sun (I to in italy, the sun is strong) and I at growing the them on zoomed 5% tube
how acres your dragons? All the six babies of acres alive all OF them ranging from 80gr and 120gr. I have given 3 babies into the the USA and they acres growing much more than mines. They of acres with OTHER normally dragons with NO problem.
They does GET want hurt much more faster? RK the moment I hadn' t any problem. They didn' t GET any hurt
Rip their skin RK the barrier? The skin is strong and it did emergency scratch on the barrier OF the cages.
My conclusion is that people having reptiles all more over the world acres divided into 2 LINEs: the ones who like morph and the one that DO emergency like it. I to emergency the right person who CAN discuss with one who DO emergency like morph and try tons of CHANGEs his idea. But ton the people who accept morph, leatherback and silkback acres like albinos, or hipomelanistic, or any OTHER morph available. My animals I suppose wants more never come bakes in Australia but is like corn snake, ball python, boas, the more you breed the less you ask from the wildly.
Best of wishes
alessandro

so perhaps good day I use Web a translator, I some the discussion misunderstood. But I would explain something over these animals gladly and would be it to me a pleasure, in order to answer any question. The only problem is that I do not speak German. I strive to answer dubt to any which I saw.
It is in-breeding: none it is not imbreeding, is casul GENETIC mutation. silkback is super a form of leatherback (like Pastell in Ballpython). I explain step by step. First leatherback appeared in 1 cross, only 1 baby showed this characteristic, we this with a normal crossed, and the result was 50% normal and 50% leatherback. We create then in other years other lines of leatherback, which we crossed leatherback x leatherback back. The result was 25% superleatherback (mentioned silkback), 50% leatherback, 25% normally burns you their skin in the sun? none it do not burn, I strove to set it on the sun I am in italy, the sun is strong, and I cultivate her on it, rushed to 5% pipe,
how are your kites? All six babies are everything of them from 80gr and 120gr moving alive. I gave 3 babies in the USA, and they grow much more than mines. They are with other normal kites with no problem. Will they many faster be hurt? for the moment I did not have a problem. They did not leave
Rip their skin with the wall hurt? The skin is strong, and it did not scratch on the wall of the cages.
My conclusion is that people, which have reptiles everywhere in the world are divided into 2 lines: the one, which like morph and the one, which do not like it. I am not the correct person, who can discuss with someone, none morph likes and itself anxious to change its idea. But to the people, which assume morph, leatherback and silkback like Albinos, or hipomelanistic, or any different are available morph. My animals, which I accept, will never return to Australia, but are like corn queue, Ballpython, Boas, the more reproduce themselves you, which less, for which you ask from the wilderness.
Best desires
alessandro

Hello,

Jamie you just made a good arguement for NOT breeding them. Why keep creating MORE problems than there already are. People can't even take proper care of the ones out there currently, so, why make it harder with already more genetically weaker ones? I highly doubt that everyone that gets hold of one will properly take care it, so there have just been more fragile ones put out there on the market which is not good.
Why are you so set for this anyway, do you want in on the breeding project or something?

Tracie