Smoothies

Originally Posted by Valley Dragons

Isn't it the nature of skin to develop toughness in places where it frequently comes in contact with foreign objects? Don't you think that it is a possibility that the dragon's body would make the neccesary adjustments?

So......... wouldnt that be the purpose for the scales?

a thing that happened over thousands of years's evoloution... producing the end result, again, Those funny things that these "silkbacks" now lack...

The logic of this is actually kind of amusing.....

again, what is the POINT of producing dragons like these?

Originally Posted by Drache613

Hello,

Why are you so set for this anyway, do you want in on the breeding project or something?

Tracie

Tracie, If you are here just to start arguements, please go elsewhere. Here we are trying to have a discussion and find answers. Please act age appropriate.

Hello,

Just asking legitimate questions, like everyone else is. I am just wondering why there is a reason she is so for this, when everyone else seems to be supporting the opposite? NO HARM in that.
It looks to me that this whole thread is an arguement though. Why don't you write that as a generalized statement, instead of directed at me. I have never directed anything towards you personally, so I would appreciate the same respect as well if you don't mind.

Tracie

So I take it you guys dont like any type of morph.
Some of us do and if you dont thats fine. For those of us who do, we spend good money on these animals because we want one. We take care of them. A lot of people dont like Translucents. I do and own a bunch of them. The same thing went around when they were introduced to the public.
If you really think that this line will be introduced into the majority of the Beardy population, come on! There is no way that a few, or even a lot of these dragons being produced will harm the general population. Im sure that the average person would not want to spend what I can only imagine these are worth.
I also think that you guys are being a little harsh on Jamie. She has brought so much info to this thread for all of you to read. You still bash her because she likes the Silks. Really. Look back and read what she writes and how you all attacked everything she said.
Mikey did the same. Lots of info but everyone looked past it. We dont like it so crucify those who do.

Jim

I emailed Allessadro yesterday with questions about how the line originated and to what degree, if any, inbreeding occurred. I also told him there was a thread going on about it. He emailed back asking where the thread was, as he would like to share his answer with everyone. I am hoping he will come on here to gives us some information.

I truly do feel the top priority of U.S. breeders should be to strengthen our already weakened lines.

On the issue brought up regarding adeno, I do not agree that the adenovirus issue is dead. I did not see anywhere in Dr. Jacobson's paper where he gave the all clear to breed adeno positive dragons because all dragons have it. It seemed to me that he chose his words carefully and did not make statements advocating the selling of adeno positive babies. I do hope that some day we have the answers regarding adeno. I do know, however, that it was not caused by my husbandry, but I am not going to go there again. Not that any of you that think adeno is no big deal care, but Tiger Lily (my huge 720 gram healthy as a horse female) is now continually laying eggs and not recovering as she did previously. Her fat pads are sunken in and I am afraid she will never be the healthy animal she once was. There have been no changes, except for her being exposed to adeno virus. But I guess to you "adeno is o.k. folks" that is no big deal. I beg to differ.

Originally Posted by JimD

So I take it you guys dont like any type of morph.
Some of us do and if you dont thats fine. For those of us who do, we spend good money on these animals because we want one. We take care of them. A lot of people dont like Translucents. I do and own a bunch of them. The same thing went around when they were introduced to the public.
If you really think that this line will be introduced into the majority of the Beardy population, come on! There is no way that a few, or even a lot of these dragons being produced will harm the general population. Im sure that the average person would not want to spend what I can only imagine these are worth.
I also think that you guys are being a little harsh on Jamie. She has brought so much info to this thread for all of you to read. You still bash her because she likes the Silks. Really. Look back and read what she writes and how you all attacked everything she said.
Mikey did the same. Lots of info but everyone looked past it. We dont like it so crucify those who do.

Jim

It's not a matter of liking or disliking. It's a matter of what's best for the animal. Not what's best for your amusement or wallet. Why do you keep coming back to that? What makes you think we wouldn't embrace those little lizards if we thought that they could have some sort of quality of life? No matter what the reasoning is behind creating this mutation, it's still a selfish reason because it does nothing to better the species at all.

And Mikey? What sort of title does this Allesandro have? Is he a scientist? As far as I know this guy could be my next door neighbor pretending to be an Italian that is an expert in...who knows???

Originally Posted by JimD

So I take it you guys dont like any type of morph.

The mindset i belive to be here, is, they do not like morphs that physically make life harder for a dragon to live its normal life.

So far, ive seen several problems brought up.

1) they need specialized care, because the skin is so fragile
2) they cannot breed normally due to the nature of a breeding dragons actions, which includes biting and scratching to get a hold on the female.
3) Wether this third is a FACT or not, i am unsure, but it seems they cannot live in the same conditions that are OPTIMAL for a healthy dragon, because of the sensitive skin.


Questions that are still unknown are:

1) Are they prone to infections in the skin, moreso than normal dragons
2) Is the Keratin, that was previously mentioned, preventing other parts of the body, or growth process from happening as they should?
3) are there hidden problems, on the inside that the human eye cannot see. Because not all genetic problems have to be physical. There are mental problems sometimes exhibited as well. meaning: do they behave in the same way as normal dragons, do they have the same instincts, and other characteristics that happen naturally with normal dragons?

Its not at all that these people dont like a new morph, as morphs CAN be brought to the public in a correct manner. Line breeding can be done correctly, and can actually Strengthen specific traits, or the health of the dragon if a breeder KNOWS what he or she is doing. It can be done, and it IS Done, by people who are very careful about their animals, and truly care for the betterment of the breed.
ALOT of breeders out here in our reptile world actually DONT know a whole boatload about genetics when they breed, and DONT know how to go about the process correctly.
Now, dont take that as me saying all of us who do breed, or plan to breed someday, should never enter the process until we know everything about genetics. because, i dont expect that.
What i DO expect. is that the people who are producing animals like these, to Look as these questions that are being asked, and FIND OUT, BEFORE they introduce these animals to the public.

If the animal can live a healthy happy life, without the trait adversely effecting their health, i say, fine, go for it. its not for me, but make sure you KNOW what you are doing. and it better be 100% Healthy before its available to the rest of the world.
its pretty obvious that the bearded dragons in the states and elsewhere, NEED some dedicated breeders to improve the quality of animals we have. what they DONT need, is people mucking with flaws in the animals characteristics, and then spreading the problem or potential problem around.
because... guys.... honestly.... i dont think its going to be too easy, or possible even, to get more dragons from Australia if they all get ruined here.

Originally Posted by Neverland Dragons

I emailed Allessadro yesterday with questions about how the line originated and to what degree, if any, inbreeding occurred. I also told him there was a thread going on about it. He emailed back asking where the thread was, as he would like to share his answer with everyone. I am hoping he will come on here to gives us some information.

I truly do feel the top priority of U.S. breeders should be to strengthen our already weakened lines.

On the issue brought up regarding adeno, I do not agree that the adenovirus issue is dead. I did not see anywhere in Dr. Jacobson's paper where he gave the all clear to breed adeno positive dragons because all dragons have it. It seemed to me that he chose his words carefully and did not make statements advocating the selling of adeno positive babies. I do hope that some day we have the answers regarding adeno. I do know, however, that it was not caused by my husbandry, but I am not going to go there again. Not that any of you that think adeno is no big deal care, but Tiger Lily (my huge 720 gram healthy as a horse female) is now continually laying eggs and not recovering as she did previously. Her fat pads are sunken in and I am afraid she will never be the healthy animal she once was. There have been no changes, except for her being exposed to adeno virus. But I guess to you "adeno is o.k. folks" that is no big deal. I beg to differ.

It's a huge deal to me, Wendy. What you're describing with Tiger Lily is exactly what happened with Fiera, and I know you've got to be scared. I'll say my prayers that Tiger Lily makes it through just fine.

I do hope Alessandro comes here and answers our questions. I'm sure he's a busy guy, but it would be nice to hear the answers straight from the horse's mouth.

Jim, if you read back over this thread, there are only two people on it trying to crucify someone...that's you and Jean.

Originally Posted by Mooing Tricycle

The mindset i belive to be here, is, they do not like morphs that physically make life harder for a dragon to live its normal life.

So far, ive seen several problems brought up.

1) they need specialized care, because the skin is so fragile
2) they cannot breed normally due to the nature of a breeding dragons actions, which includes biting and scratching to get a hold on the female.
3) Wether this third is a FACT or not, i am unsure, but it seems they cannot live in the same conditions that are OPTIMAL for a healthy dragon, because of the sensitive skin.


Questions that are still unknown are:

1) Are they prone to infections in the skin, moreso than normal dragons
2) Is the Keratin, that was previously mentioned, preventing other parts of the body, or growth process from happening as they should?
3) are there hidden problems, on the inside that the human eye cannot see. Because not all genetic problems have to be physical. There are mental problems sometimes exhibited as well. meaning: do they behave in the same way as normal dragons, do they have the same instincts, and other characteristics that happen naturally with normal dragons?

Its not at all that these people dont like a new morph, as morphs CAN be brought to the public in a correct manner. Line breeding can be done correctly, and can actually Strengthen specific traits, or the health of the dragon if a breeder KNOWS what he or she is doing. It can be done, and it IS Done, by people who are very careful about their animals, and truly care for the betterment of the breed.
ALOT of breeders out here in our reptile world actually DONT know a whole boatload about genetics when they breed, and DONT know how to go about the process correctly.
Now, dont take that as me saying all of us who do breed, or plan to breed someday, should never enter the process until we know everything about genetics. because, i dont expect that.
What i DO expect. is that the people who are producing animals like these, to Look as these questions that are being asked, and FIND OUT, BEFORE they introduce these animals to the public.

If the animal can live a healthy happy life, without the trait adversely effecting their health, i say, fine, go for it. its not for me, but make sure you KNOW what you are doing. and it better be 100% Healthy before its available to the rest of the world.
its pretty obvious that the bearded dragons in the states and elsewhere, NEED some dedicated breeders to improve the quality of animals we have. what they DONT need, is people mucking with flaws in the animals characteristics, and then spreading the problem or potential problem around.
because... guys.... honestly.... i dont think its going to be too easy, or possible even, to get more dragons from Australia if they all get ruined here.

Thank you, Alicia. Very well said. Has anyone told you you'd make a great mediator?

Originally Posted by whiskersmom

And Mikey? What sort of title does this Allesandro have? Is he a scientist? As far as I know this guy could be my next door neighbor pretending to be an Italian that is an expert in...who knows???

You can ask Allesandro yourself those questions. If we can keep this thread civil, then maybe we can all learn something.

When I said adeno was dead, what I should of said it has not been discussed, here at least, much lately. I am very happy that new owner's and people that knew nothing about AV can now at least find info. And some breeders have put the available data on their websites. It is at least a step in the right direction. I do hope everyone will continue to help fund the research being done.