Venomoids, the right and the wrong.

Originally Posted by adder

Haden, sounds like a troll question.
Anyone who puts the welfare of their snakes first free handles instead of using metal sticks to attack snakes.
It would be patently stupid not to free handle venomoids.
All potential questions about venomoids and ours in particular are answered at the venomoid snake FAQ here
http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm
and note that we have gravid ones here at the moment.

not trying to be a troll just want to get a straight answer, and you didnt answer my question, do you or do you NOT handle venemous or venemoids during one of your events in front of children and adults? a simple yes or no will suffix.

Hadenglock,

I don't think you're being a troll at all. It was a simple questions and Adder hasn't answered my questions either. All I wanted was a couple pics showing that it is a "minor surgery. I don't think that is a difficult request. Show hard proof that it is a minor surgery and answer some simple questions that aren't answered already. Instead we get go to my FAQ's.

Personally, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this statement:

Originally Posted by adder

Anyone who puts the welfare of their snakes first free handles instead of using metal sticks to attack snakes.

I handle my (non-venomous) aboreal snakes with hooks. Based on their attitude and how they react, this appears to cause much less stress to the snakes than when I use my hands (and not for lack of soft handling technique, but because of the heat of my hands). My observation. I'd be interested to look at your sources, if you have some, in regards to free-handle vs hook.

Well Apexpredatorboids, I am sure you don't use a hook to handle your ball pythons?
Why?
They prefer to be handled by hand!
Same for all other snakes.

Now taking things further, there are many good reasons that venomoids are sensible for wildlife displays, not the least being public safety and a legal requirement to guarantee public safety.
You and other posters here may think it's OK to play Russian Roulette with public safety in venomous snake shows, as does an inexperienced business rival who does this often and has had to rush staff to hospital for venomous snake bite as a result.
We don't regard such risk as acceptable or legal!

And save me the lame argument about experts being able to handle venomous snakes without being bitten. Even the best handlers make mistakes. If you can, try asking Luke Yeomans or Aleta Stacey about how they were able to avoid bites and the like from venomous creatures due to their expertise.

Bye for now!

Originally Posted by adder

Well Apexpredatorboids, I am sure you don't use a hook to handle your ball pythons?
Why?
They prefer to be handled by hand!
Same for all other snakes.

I have zero interest in ball pythons, but nice try. I freehandled my non-venomous because the amount of risk involved with their handling didn't necessitate the use of tools. Which is an absolute apples to oranges comparison, when the subject is the proper handling of hots.

Are you honestly trying to make the case that they "prefer" any handling, period, and that it makes any discernible difference to them whether it's flesh or a metal implement? We must have our very own snake whisperer, right here on Fauna, and didn't even know it.

Originally Posted by adder

...you are against snake's welfare and I am for it...

Yeah, ok..

My previous comments were purely in regard to, not only your cavalier attitude about endorsing practices which may lead to people thinking it's a good idea to put themselves in needless danger, by freehandling hots, but also concerning what I believe to be your extremely contrived and self-serving rationale behind the endorsement. I don't have a dog in the void vs. hot fight, I just get a kick out of some of the rationalizations.

I think it's a bit disingenuos to claim such concern for a snake's welfare, after forcing it to endure surgery and putting it in such stressful situations as being paraded in front of a crowd. Mutilation=concern? What were you saying about a "lame argument"..?

I have been putting on Snake Safety Classes for over 20 years with venomous snakes that are safely contained!

They are in high visibility acrylic towers which make it easy for attendees to view them clearly and safely with no need to perform acts of cruelty.

Can't take the heat?

Get out of the kitchen!

Tim, how are you?
I don't think forum rules would allow me to post what others have said about your alleged reptile education shows and methods you use to move snakes about.
OK, you don't think metal tongs are cruel?
I'm sure the snakes do!
All the best

Originally Posted by adder

OK, you don't think metal tongs are cruel?
I'm sure the snakes do!
All the best

Was lurking about this thread for a while and I really need to say something about this.
You neglect the fact that reptiles do not want to be handled AT ALL. Tongs or hands. You could even open up a debate about whether or not reptiles experience emotions or not, because there is plenty of evidence on the latter. They tolerate it if they were raised to become used to being lifted into the air by a giant monster.
I'm quite sure the only thing the snake "wants" is to be left alone in its hide until it's dinner time or breeding season.

Mimmiex, your comment
"You neglect the fact that reptiles do not want to be handled AT ALL." is a disingenius way to change the subject when you have lost an argument and been unable to show that venomoids are better off being free handled than their tong handled venomous peers.
No one here has argued that snakes like to be handled, however only an idiot would claim a snake prefers to be handled with sticks than free handled by hand.
Furthermore, and you may not be aware of this, but regularly free handled snakes are in fact quite happy being handled gently by people for long periods due to the thermnal properties of the handlers, being close to the preferred temperature of of the snake.
Metal sticks lack these properties.
All the best

Adder,

I have refrained from posting here because it is so controversial, but here it goes.

1) So, do you think they would prefer a major invasive surgury to be able to be handled, or rather have minimum handling via a hook. That surgury is not minor by any means. I work with a few rattlers and copperheads and will use a hook and maybe a hand on their tail depening on species, the size of the animal and their attitude. Usually they adjust to some handling, but not always. I wouldn't say they enjoy it, but they handle well. I'm sure I would prefer to be picked up with a hook than to have my head sliced and part of me removed if I were given a choice.

2) No matter how tame they are, void or not, I would never ever freehandle a hot. We force these animals into captivity and it is our duty to give them the best possible care, not selective surguries that cause pain and suffering. Even if that suffering is temporary, they should not be put through it.

3)I have read most of this thread, but not all of it. Has outgrowing the implants been addressed when doing surgury on a young growing snake. Does it involve multiple surguries through out it's life to correct this or is a shrunken or deformed head the way it goes.

4) lets make a comparison. Would anybody here remove the claws and teeth from a bengal tiger so it could be a "pet". Not I... I know that comparison is a stretch, but not too far. Like other animals, snakes are potentially dangerous wether it is a hot or a larger species of constrictor. We choose to work with potentially dangerous animals. If the risk is not worth it DO NOT MUTILATE YOUR POOR ANIMALS and work with something harmless.

5) Since you believe it's better for the animal to be voided for "proper" free-handling, can you post some pics up of the surgury being performed. If it doesn't make the animal suffer, then pics of this "minor" surgury can be provided to show they don't suffer from it.

I am not completly closed minded. If you can prove they don't suffer from the surgury, I may be swayed. I dont think it will happen though.

Jacob