Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

I have come across several great points in this thread from the predominant participating members. I myself feel that the many different morphs are a great attribute to the hobby. They give "true" collectors/breeders diversity. They must be out-crossed like any other group of animals no matter what the pattern or color. Strength in this case comes in numbers. And as far as price, i.e. "higher end" dragons, is concerned we must have a larger perspective. Just because the average person uses 87 octane doesn't mean we all must. If I am living within my means and my taste calls for extremely expensive breathe-taking dragon, guess what, I'm going to get it lol. Everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I work with animals from many of the "top breeders" and they are all as "healthy as horses". One of which is a young 10 month old Hypo Italian Leather 100% Het Translucent. His weight exceeds 375g(on empty) and measures right at 19". I collect dragons from one side of the spectrum to the other. And as documented by yours truly, they are equally healthy. Now each have different eating patterns/prey preferences and grow at their own rates. But never the less continue to steadily grow no matter what the color of there scales or eyes.

Now as far as the "natural selection" issue goes, Brian is correct. But not because they are "genetically" weak necessarily. They would fall closely to the albinos of other species. Natural Selection would tell us they would simply be the first to go due to poor camouflage. A bright red/orange/yellow dragon would have much less a chance than a "normal" beardie in the wilderness. But again, this isn't the wild lol. Sorry for rambling. I don't say much ordinarily so when I do I guess I REALLY do, lol.

Originally Posted by spyder79

yes actually if you look at the background health wise of hypos there are tons of problems with them as well though they are so spread out now that its not such a problem though there are still ones that pop up with severe genetic issues.

But yes hypos are in the same list as trans and leathers. just not as bad now because of how spread out they are. I own a hypo but he is very healthy and good sized. And i wouldnt reproduce him if he wasnt of good size. The norm for dragons has gotten rediculous to think that its ok to reproduce a 16 inch dragon is in my opinion wrong. anyway im getting off on a tangent im out.

Dude your animal doesnt have to be the size of a german giant to breed the thing or to reproduce healthy animals. You prefer a bigger bearded dragons. Thats just what you like. And after a couple of years the witblits line will be crossed out enough to do more things with it. Its like any exotic morph it needs time.
So you have an exotic morph but this whole time you have been talking about how bad and unhealthy they are? I did note that he was a big hypo. but that really doesnt mean he's a "healthy dragon" because he's big. Anyway super bowl beer has makin me quite tired so i am out for the night an i will talk to you gentlemen later!

Ok guys let me make a few statements and ask a few questions then maybe this would get you thinking...
Firstly it takes a real person to apologise once he knows he over reacted. Apology accepted mm dragons.

Ok first the shipping fee. Yes it MAY cost 1200$. If you want a dragon now and only one and you want me to ship it solo then it might cost up to 2000, depending on where to etc. But most of the time I will ship two or three buyers' dragons then it works out much less. The fee then gets split between them. The fact is most guys who buy these dragons aren't realy phased by 'only' a 1000$.

Then a statement about the translucents and so called 'weak witblits'. Witblits dragons are not inbred! As I have said we have selected for white dragons (also for smaller dragons, I will discuss later). We started of with a fairly light female. Paired her to the whitest male we could find. Remember there are no leucistics or hypos or such available in South Africa so these morphs weren't used. We then took the whitst females and bred them to an ven whiter male we looked for. In some very very lucky pairing we hatched the witblits babies. They were not planned and never expected. Pure luck! No inbreeding. They are not weak in any way. They might look odd and 'weak' but that is because the mind tells you it is not normal. And I agree. It is not normal in the true sense of the word. Normal bearded dragons run around in the outback in Australia. A normal dragon should not even be in a cage! Bold but true. We have intervered the day the first dragons was smuggled out of Australia. Now we have to deal with it. And adapt to what people want. unfortunately this means breeding extreme things that are not always humane. Remember the witblits is not extreme. It is just rare. As for the translucents. The same legend, Josh, who put some life back in to the old school translucents are working with witblits babies. He said he will strengthen the witblts morph before marketing any. He was much surprised when he received his shipment as he would not need to do much 'strengthening' with them...

Why then do I sell these dragons when i have only produce 16 of them? Why don't I multiply them like alot of breeders do, so as to have the monopoly. I mean in a year or three I could then sell 300... Well because I am in South Africa... I do not have the huge gene pool that the guys from America and Europe have. I can not breed a witblts to an extreme red. That is because there are no extreme reds here. It is also impossible to import them. If I do the effort and if government agrees then it will work me out over R150000 for the first dragon... ( over $20 000). If I sell enough witblits babies then I might consider it in the future. But for now it is not happening. So basically it came down to the fact that the future of these dragons are 'overseas'. After long discussions and thought is was agreed that they should be sold for a large sum of money because they give the buyer endless possibilities. For example: Josh wants to 'strengthen' the morph and breed the whitest witblits ever. Another buyer are looking at creatine a translucent hypo witblits. And another want a pure red witblits (I like to call then fireblits...)

As for nature. Yes they would have been killed in nature. Survival of the fittest! Only the 'toughest' of odd animals survive nature. Like our honeybadgers. There are several reports of adult albino honeybadgers running around. Albino beardies? Well i dont think they have the verocity to kill an incoming bird of prey...

Hope this clears up a few things.
If you have not seen the website recently have alook. We updated with more photos of sub adult dragons. You will then see the are by no definition weak!

O, almost forgot. Regarding the size of these animals. We also selcted our breeding females on size. We selected for smaller animals because they are more economical to feed! Yes they lay less eggs than a huge female but it still worked out cheaper' for us. Crickets and other feeder insects are very very very expensive in SA! It was thus best to breed small females that ate less but produced well. Our males are 'normal' though. Much like in breeding cattle you want small cows and large bulls... Our 'white line' of dragons as I call it tends to be smaller than other dragons, not because they are inbred! But because they were selected to be. (They are also our most fertile line. Females laying up to 7 cluthes per year.) That is why Josh said he wants to 'work' with before he markets them . A good example of what the market wants. We want small dragons, US wants huge dragons.

So in short what is witblits now? Strong, Smaller than average dragons, most likely highly fertile, patternless gems with huge potential...

I,too don't necessarily see anything wrong with smaller dragons,as if they are unhealthy. I can remember being at the Taylor Michigan show some years ago and a guy came around trying to sell a product that was a "wonder food supplement" of some type. He said that ALL beardies are supposed tobe 24-26" long,not just G.Giants. He said that 19-20" were stunted,hadn't been fed properly. So I asked him why,at 5'10 and my husband at 6'2,we were taller than he was [ I can't remember his exact height]and whether or not he had been stunted,hadn't been properly fed....maybe his genetics weren't strong ? Anyway,I wasn't looking to be smart but he got the point and left my table quickly. Think about Asian[ small] people....some of the longest lived people on earth.

Ah... now, interesting thread here all...
I for one, like Brian and Chris prefer larger animals...I don't care for the trans, hypos, or leathers either... I also don't really care for the "bling" dragons... Kinda strange eh ? Perhaps so. Each to their own... If you say these animals haven't been line bred, then we'd have to take your word for it now wouldn't we ? As for issues in recessives, it can take several generations of this particular morph to show up as a dominant gene... won't know til that happens.. If it happens. So, saying that... I'll quietly bow out... and watch.. from the shadows..lol...
Interesting...
Zebraflavencs

They look really cool. I wish I had them in my collection! Have any of the patternless animals been bred back to a parent, sibling, or each other yet? If so what were the resuls of those breedings?

So if I understand correctly then, these offspring we are seeing are from the very first parents that produced the first witblits? Is this the only pair of animals that has produced witblits? If that is the case, nobody knows what will come from breeding them, and they will have to be inbred in order to reproduce without your original pair.

Yes they will have to be bred back with each other to determine what gene this is. We have not done this yet but will do so in the next breeding season. We will perform a whole lot of diferent breedings: pair siblings, mate a male offspring with mother, female offspring with father, witblits to another patternless line, witblits to unrelated normal wild type dragons and witblits to other high colour dragons. This would make for some interesting results...

That is where the weakness will come from, if there is any. Could be bad, could be fine, only time will tell. If you are saying you have an already limited gene pool there, that could be why this popped up, and already be inbred. Why does everyone think all these odd dragons are popping up? Just coincedence that all these oddities are popping up one after another? Doubt it. Take that into consideration with the increase in abnormalities, decrease in size/hardiness, and the potential dollar value with producing the newest morph. And not that it has to be a bad thing, but again, the race will start, and probably already has.