Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

Some of the points I was referring to were opinions. I just happen to agree with a few opinions I guess. I am almost equally enthused about both larger and smaller dragons. I do however like to see the dragons in my program robust no matter what the length. I simply enjoy all physiques, colors, sizes, and tubercle sizes. I do agree with the notion that size does not in all cases mean the dragon is healthy. I still do believe it boils down to each individuals preference.

But i Will STRONGLY agree with Chris. The OP cant give you solid information on the dragon and its genetic traits. And there for this animal should not even be on the Market until more is known about it.

Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive. You would buy 5 for 3000ea and maybe two survived. Damn thats 7000 a dragon..!
Witblits babies don't die. They aren't weak! I have never lost a single witblits baby to 'weakness' or genetic abnormality. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...

Originally Posted by sizzlindragons

To a point certainly. Most now days are not random genetic mutations. I doubt a hypo trans leatherback would ever randomly pop up.

No, something like that would be what I would consider a combo morph, which of course is made by crossing existing morphs together. I was referring more to the "base morphs" (for lack of a better term). Keep in mind my knowledge with regards to beardies is limited, but I've been working with leos for 15 years and have seen the explosion in color and pattern morphs in those over the past years.

Originally Posted by witblits

Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive. You would buy 5 for 3000ea and maybe two survived. Damn thats 7000 a dragon..!
Witblits babies don't die. They aren't weak! I have never lost a single witblits baby to 'weakness' or genetic abnormality. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...

I personally would have done at least one more test breeding (breeding Witblits back to parent) to get a better grip on what the genetics are prior to releasing the morph, but decisions like that are up to the breeder, and I don't fault you for it. I wish you were here in the states as I would be very interested in obtaining one of these true patternless dragons and perhaps a sibling, however the price of shipping is a bit of a turnoff. It must be much more expensive to export from South Africa than it is from Europe or the US because we pay nowhere near that much to export dozens of animals to and from Europe and vice versa.

Originally Posted by KelliH

No, something like that would be what I would consider a combo morph, which of course is made by crossing existing morphs together. I was referring more to the "base morphs" (for lack of a better term). Keep in mind my knowledge with regards to beardies is limited, but I've been working with leos for 15 years and have seen the explosion in color and pattern morphs in those over the past years.

I agree but the explosion of colors and combos would never be seen in the wild. I think some of the more extreme morphs would never make it in the wild but it does not mean its an unhealthy pet or inferior just not as hardy.
I actually find leatherbacks to be some of the easiest babies to raise and keep fat. I love working with certain leatherbacks. Trans not so much but I do keep trying different lines to see what suits me and what I like.
I am now getting into geckos and I highly doubt my Enigmas would ever make it in the wild.
How and what we breed plays a huge role in the health of an animal. That is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by sizzlindragons

I agree but the explosion of colors and combos would never be seen in the wild. I think some of the more extreme morphs would never make it in the wild but it does not mean its an unhealthy pet or inferior just not as hardy.
I actually find leatherbacks to be some of the easiest babies to raise and keep fat. I love working with certain leatherbacks. Trans not so much but I do keep trying different lines to see what suits me and what I like.
I am now getting into geckos and I highly doubt my Enigmas would ever make it in the wild.
How and what we breed plays a huge role in the health of an animal. That is just my opinion.

Oh I agree that many of the morphs would never survive long term in the wild, albinos included. But the fact is that these animals are not in the wild, they are captivity and are reproduced for our own pleasure and no other reason really.

Oh I agree that many of the morphs would never survive long term in the wild, albinos included. But the fact is that these animals are not in the wild, they are captivity and are reproduced for our own pleasure and no other reason really.

I agree, and have yet to produce or own a "high-end" dragon that was inferior to its het siblings or any other for that matter. These dragons are as strong as they come in my book. Some dragons can be more difficult than others, true. But there are many factors that play a major role even in development inside the egg(humidity/temps/etc). Some little guys just get a rough start, but with proper care and precautions they turn out just fine most of the time. Nature will always play a role in survival, they can't all make it every time.

Originally Posted by witblits

Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive. You would buy 5 for 3000ea and maybe two survived. Damn thats 7000 a dragon..!
Witblits babies don't die. They aren't weak! I have never lost a single witblits baby to 'weakness' or genetic abnormality. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...

Jacques, please you can call me Tom. What was wrong with my statement? Yes, you state almost the same thing. Not much is known about the morph. I simply added more should be known about this animal before it is marketed. Your marketing a 4500 dollar bearded dragon without saying for sure its a simple recessive trait! Also here's my next question. You talk about breeding color to the witblits dragon right? red orange yellow? What if this animal cant not develop color? So now what? Make the animal lighter or whiter? Guess thats it?
So they were trying to take your beardies huh? that def would be depressing. Just like the breeders and hobbyist here and the states who just got done fight a bill to ban ALL NON NATIVE ANIMALS... Not just one species. And are we not still fighting the bill to ban the certain types of snake? I dont know... An because there may be a law passed to ban b.d. dragons in s.a. that means hurry sell sell sell??? and if so why are they not more affordable???
Yea your right, I am on here saying what i am saying, reading books, and giving titles to prove the facts, but i didnt take the five minutes needed to read your web-site..
So you talk about breeders and collectors? i am unsure any collector is going to drop 5500 hundred dollars To put that dragon in a cage and look at. Unless it just a rich schmo.And the "pioneer breeder" would buy a few of those animals get a wholesale price or a better price. So your saying these guys are taking the risk for 5 dragons at say 4500 a dragon plus exports fee's. So thats somewhere around 23 -24 Grand. For 5 dragons. then they have to reproduce a witblit to get a witblit price. which in the states my friend would be around 2 grand. and thats for the first ones.Thats alot of risk for not much reward...

Originally Posted by witblits

Jeez DragonLover how can you make a statement like this?
Firstly we cleary state to all buyers that the genetics of this morphs is not known. And the rest of the info is simple: it is a new morph, must be genetic, true patternless, stay patternless, beautiful.
That is all the info the guys want to hear.
I promise if you were in my shoes, right here in SA, right now, then you would have done the exact same thing! I'm not a novice keeper. In fact I regard myself as a top breeder with alot of knowlegde on reptiles, genetics and their health. So why then don't I replicate this morph as I should be doing (you said it, and I have said it before that it would be the right thing)? 1) Because of my limited resources, namely feeder insects and variety of dragon morphs (I previously mentioned 'gene pool' but this was the wrong words.) and then 2) The fact that they are trying to implement a law making that bearded dragons illegal in SA! Yes so why risk all this, keep on 'playing' with the morph and one day insenerate them all... Pointless. That is why I have decided to send these animals overseas 'early'. The guys buying these animals know this. You would have if you read the website...
Basically there are two buyers. One is the collector who just wants a witblits as a 'pet', to complete his collection. Here it realy doesn't matter what genes these carry. He knows they are worth alot, both in price and in looks, and this makes his whole collection worth much more. Then there is the breeders. The guys buing these are the pioneers in bearded dragon breeding. They are taking the 'risk' and wil reap the awards! As they say risk = reward. These guys will produce morphs like solid red witblits, translucent witblits etc. It doesn't realy matter what trait this is to them because the less they know the more 'playing' around with it they have. And they know it has potential no matter what gene this is.
So the point is I had to sell them. No point in being selfish and keep it to myself and then it all goes to waste. Anyway if I had bred them longer and thus multiplied them the money would have been the same.
The first translucents were just as expensive.[b]. (I have lost a few but that was due to canabalism and heat stroke when they were in the care of another breeder).
These guys are on te market. And they have all the right to be there. They are not cars...

But you would have a good knowledge of the dragon and could answer every question that was answered instead of being in the dark about somethings..
There you have it the translucent went for 3000 dollars there and here they went for at most 1000 dollars! So there is your price difference. 3 to 1
How many witblits have you hatched?

The witblits dont die? Maybe there not weak i will go with that. what will they be after you inbreed them? an to say "they dont die", there like any other dragon. you just havent had a weak one yet. And when you reproduce these guys your going to have to make them weaker before you can make them stronger.
Thats right there not cars, there a living breathing animal that is fragile and irreplaceable. But if i was the one selling them for 4000-5000 dollars i would want them on the market too.

Yep, I agree.