Notices |
Hello!
Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.
Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....
Please note that the information requested during registration will be used to determine your legitimacy as a participant of this site. As such, any information you provide that is determined to be false, inaccurate, misleading, or highly suspicious will result in your registration being rejected. This is designed to try to discourage as much as possible those spammers and scammers that tend to plague sites of this nature, to the detriment of all the legitimate members trying to enjoy the features this site provides for them.
Of particular importance is the REQUIREMENT that you provide your REAL full name upon registering. Sorry, but this is not like other sites where anonymity is more the rule.
Also your TRUE location is important. If the location you enter in your profile field does not match the location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected. As such, I strongly urge registrants to avoid using a VPN service to register, as they are often used by spammers and scammers, and as such will be blocked when discovered when auditing new registrations.
Sorry about all these hoops to jump through, but I am quite serious about blocking spammers and scammers at the gate on this site and am doing the very best that I can to that effect. Trust me, I would rather be doing more interesting things with my time, and wouldn't be making this effort if I didn't think it was worthwhile.
|
|
|
03-13-2014, 02:33 PM
|
#21
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille
While facts are facts, beliefs or feelings are very much relevant in whether and how much risk should be assumed by various parties that might come into contact with a venomous critter kept in an enclosure, professionally in a zoo/business or privately.
I have said before that those who are irresponsible represent a great risk to the public and especially to children who are naturally curious and tend to pick up critters who may have escaped inadequate housing. I do not believe the innocent and unaware should bear any risk from the actions irresponsible keepers.
How to arrange that is another can of worms, but that is what I believe.
On the other hand, those adults who are capable, who have professional grade enclosures and rooms set aside for housing would seem to risk only themselves.
People go skydiving and step out of perfectly good airplanes for fun. I think that is insanity (we are not talking military, we are talking for fun) and I would never do that in a zillion years but I am not prepared to tell an adult that they can't skydive because their parachute might not open.
|
Well, as I've said, I've heard this and much more, many times...I give up, good luck to all.
If anyone need references to peer-reviewed research, other experts, factual info, please do not hesitate to be in touch, but I can't continue to debate in this manner, Frank
|
|
|
03-13-2014, 02:48 PM
|
#22
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by zookeeperfrank
I can't continue to debate in this manner, Frank
|
You can, but you apparently won't.
Perhaps that is a valid action, because the debate leaves your field of expertise and enters the much bigger arena of rights, responsibilities, and what government should and should not do as far as restricting activity for the benefit of its citizens.
It is a debate about freedom versus safety, and it is an old, old debate.
|
|
|
03-13-2014, 02:52 PM
|
#23
|
|
"I feel" was probably poor choice of words on my part; that is what I get for not proofreading.
To re phrase my previous comment:
From the perspective of someone on the outside looking in, it seems to me that there will always be a great risk, much of which is touched upon by Frank, regarding preparedness. I however, it seems that even in a professional (non-private) setting there is the potential for similar risks, it just helps that more people are involved in the emergency response system, making it more efficient. Even in a zoo, if someone suffers a bad bite from a black mamba or tiger snake, there is a high risk of death. From my perspective, it would appear that private keepers, if properly trained and equipped, can safely maintain venomous collections. If someone is fully aware of all aspects of the risk, then based on what I can see at this time I think they should be able to get a license to keep them if they are properly equipped and have appropriate protocols in place.
As for the other comment I made:
The one thing I feel should be different is the licensing requirements. I feel that all venomous snakes should require a license to keep. The fact that (in most counties) native CA venomous (ruber aside) require no permit, yet copperheads require a state permit is kind of crazy. Essentially without a permit it would be legal to keep SoPac or Mojave rattlers but illegal to obtain a copperhead.
~what I mean is, based on my current knowledge of venom, copperheads are less dangerous under similar bite conditions than some of the snakes that can be legally kept without permit requirements being met, in CA that is.
Just to give you all a little info about where I am coming from:
I was looking into obtaining a venomous permit a few years ago. I was working on a long term plan but gave it up in its infancy at the request of my wife. I got as far as researching the legal requirements to obtain the permit. Now had I gotten past the second step (working with non-venomous, aggressive animals for 2 years without a bite) and moved on to the 2 year internship at an institution working with venomous snakes, perhaps I would have changed my perspective and decided that private citizens should not be allowed to keep hots. Frank has that perspective after years of experience in a professional and scientific capacity and thus, I have taken all he has to say very seriously (there is no substitute for that kind of experience).
As far as the question of how much risk somebody feels they can handle; that can be tricky. The NC kid that had those hots illegally FELT he could handle it... he was wrong and his friend paid for it. Most people tend to overestimate what they are capable of (or underestimate what the snake is capable of) and that is where things can go horribly wrong.
|
|
|
03-13-2014, 03:56 PM
|
#24
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille
You can, but you apparently won't.
Perhaps that is a valid action, because the debate leaves your field of expertise and enters the much bigger arena of rights, responsibilities, and what government should and should not do as far as restricting activity for the benefit of its citizens.
It is a debate about freedom versus safety, and it is an old, old debate.
|
As mentioned earlier, this topic always winds up with a discussion of rights, gov regs etc., and I have no interest in such matters. As for expertise in that area, a bit of advice - if you are seeking to change opinions or be taken seriously, do not make statements that you have not researched, especially re another's qualifications, etc... I am an attorney, admitted to the NYS bar in 1981 - not an expert when compared to attorneys who specialize in the above, but not somewhat well-informed, just not interested at all in the subject.
|
|
|
03-13-2014, 05:09 PM
|
#25
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by zookeeperfrank
As mentioned earlier, this topic always winds up with a discussion of rights, gov regs etc., and I have no interest in such matters. As for expertise in that area, a bit of advice - if you are seeking to change opinions or be taken seriously, do not make statements that you have not researched, especially re another's qualifications, etc... I am an attorney, admitted to the NYS bar in 1981 - not an expert when compared to attorneys who specialize in the above, but not somewhat well-informed, just not interested at all in the subject.
|
I am an attorney as well. That expertise is not a requirement when each citizen chooses to enter the old debate of government versus individual rights.
That this topic always ends up with a discussion of rights is no surprise, that you have no interest in such matters certainly is.
|
|
|
Join
now to reply to this thread or open new ones
for your questions & comments! FaunaClassifieds.com
is the largest online community about Reptile
& Amphibians, Snakes, Lizards and number one
classifieds service with thousands of ads to look
for. Registration is open to everyone and FREE.
Click Here to Register!
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:55 AM.
|
|