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Shipping Forum for all issues concerning shipping, shipping companies, and anything directly related to moving animals and products via commercial carriers.

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Old 01-23-2005, 03:40 PM   #11
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally Posted by alvaro
I agree. There are people among us that don’t care at all about putting at risk other people’s lives. Not only that of the carriers, but they also sell poisonous snakes to minors and other people that don’t have a clue about how to keep them. Those are at an even greater risk than the carrier’s employees.
Car dealers also sell automobiles to people who are lousy drivers, or irresponsible drunken drivers. Any suggestions as to what we could do about that without infringing significantly on everyone's privacy and freedom? I would rather not live in an Orwellian society.

I agree that people's rights to own inherently dangerous things should be limited at the point that they are endagering other people. But captive venomous snakes, unlike automobiles, have an incredibly good safety record as far as not being a danger to anyone but their voluntary owners and handlers.

Quote:
A woman died a few months ago bitten by her “pet”, a Bothrops alternatus. Don’t get me wrong, I also like (and respect) venomous snakes. But my rights to keep them end exactly where those of the safeness of my neighbor start.
These two facts don't make a conclusion. A woman who chose to keep venomous snakes was bitten by one. That's what happens sometimes to people who choose to take risks in order to enrich their lives. You cannot conclude that her neighbors were at risk.

The number of innocent bystanders and neighbors who have ever been bitten by someone else's captive venomous snake approaches zero, and in fact may be zero. I'm aware of a few reports, but one was proven false, another has no support evidence and may be false, and the most recent one from Florida involving the tiny, bright colored burrowing snake that supposedly climbed up into a bed to bite a sleeping child is remarkably implausible. No one who has kept Aspidelaps could be easily convinced that the kid wasn't playing with the snake on purpose. A scenario like that is a bad one, but it is fundamentally about the parents' responsibility to keep dangerous but pretty and tempting things locked up.

The press tore the woman with the Bothrops apart and made a lot of insinuations that the snakes were running around the house loose. From what I heard through a less sensationalist source, the house roaming reptiles were iguanas. The venomous snakes were secured in cages.


Quote:
Self policing is the way to go. Maybe it will backfire on us, if it does happen so be it. On the other hand maybe we will be respected because we act responsibly.
I agree that illegal shipping is a serious problem that we need to address within our community, but so is demonizing venomous snakes as a huge risk to the neighbors. Standards of secure and responsible keeping are important for all reptiles, since it is neither humane for the snakes nor good for the ecosystem if any non native animals are allowed to escape. But the historical safety record says that venomous snakes cannot be considered a significant threat to anyone but their owners.

This is not to say that a bad scenario could never happen. It could, and as responsible keepers we should do what we can to use good safety protocol in housing and handling our animals. We should also focus on educating people realistically about what the risks actually are, instead of buying into the exaggerated panic that the uneducated person feels at the idea of being anywhere near a venomous snake.

Venomous snakes don't have wings to fly. Their fangs don't drip human blood and they don't have passkeys on their tails to pick bedroom locks with. They do not have an unerring instinct that directs them to the nearest nunnery or orphanage to slaughter the innocent. We herpers all know this and think this is very funny, but the average person on the street believes things about venomous snakes that are remarkably silly, and that doesn't help our legal climate either.
 
Old 01-23-2005, 03:40 PM   #12
The BoidSmith
Just for starters!

Monacle cobra for sale in Reptimart. Buyer chooses method of shipping? Shipper should state the only possible shipping method is Delta.

Regards
Attached Images
 
 
Old 01-23-2005, 03:48 PM   #13
The BoidSmith
This one is either willing to loose money on shipping or...

Delta charges $70 and above, wooden boxes are close $30. So shipping charges are $45?
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Old 01-23-2005, 03:56 PM   #14
The BoidSmith
This one is even worse...

It could be sold to a minor for that matter.
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:03 PM   #15
The BoidSmith
Quote:
I agree that illegal shipping is a serious problem that we need to address within our community, but so is demonizing venomous snakes as a huge risk to the neighbors.
Tanith,

No one is proposing a ban on keeping poisonous snakes. We are just concerned about irresponsible shipping. Take a look at the examples above. Should a buyer be the one to choose a shipping method for a monacle cobra? Look at the "offer" on the coral snake. What if it goes to a minor?

Regards.
 
Old 01-23-2005, 04:24 PM   #16
snakegetters
Quote:
Originally Posted by alvaro
No one is proposing a ban on keeping poisonous snakes. We are just concerned about irresponsible shipping. Take a look at the examples above. Should a buyer be the one to choose a shipping method for a monacle cobra? Look at the "offer" on the coral snake. What if it goes to a minor?
Yes, the examples you're pointing to above are pretty egregious and deserve the attention of their local Fish and Wildlife authorities. I was just pointing out that one of our arguments against irresponsible shipping methods should *not* be that captive venomous snakes are a huge risk to the neighbors. We can come up with factually better reasons that aren't damaging to the herp community.

I am not personally of the opinion that 18 is a magic age that bestows adult level responsibility and maturity. There are a few 16 and 17 year olds whom I would trust to care properly for a coral snake, and a lot of 30 and 40 year olds whom I wouldn't. But in general I agree that "minor buys venomous snake from irresponsible dealer, minor gets bitten" is a potentially bad scenario for our community. It's not a good idea for a dealer to sell to minors for that specific reason.
 
Old 01-23-2005, 05:33 PM   #17
The BoidSmith
Quote:
I was just pointing out that one of our arguments against irresponsible shipping methods should *not* be that captive venomous snakes are a huge risk to the neighbors. We can come up with factually better reasons that aren't damaging to the herp community.
We agree on that. We don't want to come across as being against hots. Nothing further from the truth. But we need to find a way to avoid illegal shipping. As someone said it's a matter of time that an "accident" happens, and then it will be too late to say we are sorry. I'm still puzzled by the ad of the coral snake and I'm wandering if it is not the ad posted by serpentboy78 that was discussed in the BOI. There were some copperheads posted for sale too.

Regards.
 
Old 01-23-2005, 05:46 PM   #18
SPZOOLOGICAL
Can you post a link to the ad? I am very suspicious that it's him. I don't expect him to come here and admit. That ad is an outrage! Seems to be that it encourages underage youths to buy. We all know he sent a box under the alias, "Joseph Scales". The username on the file for the particular ad, is "david". There is no way of knowing for sure. Do you see any familiarities w/ the writing style in the ad and Mike Clark? I suspect the vendor in this case would fork over the $10 and send it via ground currier.

Hi TT! Nice to see you. I read the thread you started. Sorry for the trouble. Hope you get it worked out soon.

Take care,

Sean
 
Old 01-23-2005, 05:56 PM   #19
Earl H. Turner
Angry Bad shipping---I was really upset.

Sean....Not only did this happen but at that time, Delta was closed on weekends at San Antonio Int'l Airport soooo--there was the Bushmaster at the baggage counter with people everywhere including a police officer. The baggage clerk or manager asked me if a snake was in there as he heard a "RATTLE" !! I asked him how that happened and his reply was that he stuck his fingers inside the box and touched the bag which was visible through the handling slits on the side of the "banana box" ( had logo w/ bananas on it and the company name, address, etc.) He said that the snake moved and started "making a rattle-like" sound . Damn, I was scared and at the same time mad as hell that that idiot would be so irresponsible. I had to think fast as there was some attention focused on myself and the "Live Iguana--Harmless Lizard" box---I told the manager that it was a Rasp-tailed Iguana--I had to make up something. When, I got home (173 miles later), I called Ripa--after heated words--his comment was, well nobody was bitten and you got your snake !!!! I never dealt with him again----what an irresponsible individual !!!! Think of this----WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED HAD A BITE OCCURRED !!!!???? To this day, I cannot believe that a person could have that mindset....Earl Turner
 
Old 01-23-2005, 06:03 PM   #20
SPZOOLOGICAL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl H. Turner
I told the manager that it was a Rasp-tailed Iguana--I had to make up something.
AH ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

WTF is a "Rasp-tailed Iguana"? No wait....lemme guess "Iguana raspicaudalis" lol.

Yea, I'd be pretty HOT too, and I would defintely be infuriated! Everyone was at risk at that time (legal, safety, etc) When did this happen?

Sean
 

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