Crested Gecko Classified sub-forum

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=384694 Here's the old thread. I apologize. It was $150, not the $200 I'd thought it was.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

So, how many people will be willing to become sponsors for this requested addition?

Originally Posted by Inret

Having support for something doesn't mean multiple people shelling out $50 in irl money each just for someone to create a subforum, man. People just don't want to pay for a thing like that. That doesn't mean they don't support that it's needful. They just don't want to pay $$++ for a few clicks and 0 server impact difference. I realize you guys have hosting fees, but you're going to have them for crested gecko ads regardless of where they land on the forum.

You're probably going to respond to this harshly, or even rudely, as that's the only sort of response I've ever gotten from the moderation team here (which is why I don't spend my money sponsoring the site). I understand that you want sponsors, and that's fine and dandy because it's your site. But refusing to see why multiple people wouldn't want to spend literally hundreds of dollars (that was the figure you presented last time) for something so miniscule, and demanding they pay up or they can't have a thing several people have requested over (now) a spanse of years, just doesn't feel right to me. It has support. It doesn't have fiscal support and in 2015 I have no idea why the creation of a forum, on a forum, would need it.

So, in other words, you don't mind at all that I make changes here as long as I am the one to foot the bill, do the work, and manage the headaches that ANY change here tends to produce. Is that it? Instead of you doing the work to search past ads that are of no interest to you, you want ME to do the work for you by removing them into their own section to make it easier for you to look at other ads.

I requested JUSTIFICATION for making such a change, one of which would be supporting sponsors that would help provide such justification. Has anyone sufficiently explained here WHY this change is really needed?

So suppose I make that change. Then I have people who complain that they want it changed back because they LIKED having those crested gecko ads in that one forum where they could peruse other gecko ads for animals they were interested in. Should I then change it back to satisfy their complaint about the now existing situation?

Take a look at the TOTAL number of registered members on this site. Then check in this thread and any others asking about this very same modification. Tell me what PERCENTAGE of the membership is asking for this change, please, and then explain why I should interpret that as an overwhelming force to be considered.

Like I said. I knew you'd respond harshly but I guess I'll try to answer your questions.

So, in other words, you don't mind at all that I make changes here as long as I am the one to foot the bill, do the work, and manage the headaches that ANY change here tends to produce. Is that it? Instead of you doing the work to search past ads that are of no interest to you, you want ME to do the work for you by removing them into their own section to make it easier for you to look at other ads.

This isn't it. You are the mod/admin of a forum and it's you guys' job to deal with those headaches. If I were the mod/admin here, it'd be mine. I AM sympathetic to the fact that they're probably numerous and tiresome. However. This absolutely should not change your bill unless you're running off of very old coding- which I admit is possible considering that the site is older. I don't know what kind of updates you guys have done in the past 13 years. Older coding in vBulletin based forums does some crazy stuff with hosting bills sometimes. I do understand that. I will admit I'm no coder these days, however, in checking with my database manager husband, he took a look around and said it Shouldn't change your charges. But without seeing your tables, obviously, he can't say yes or no for sure.

There's nothing wrong with running vBulletin-based forums the old way, by the way. But you're already hosting the ads, regardless of Where they're being hosted on the forums, so that shouldn't matter.

Your implication that I am a lazy person is uncalled for and, to use your own word, unjustified. Having multiple forums obviously makes things easier, otherwise you wouldn't have the classifieds sections you already have. I go throughout both the large and small forums and rarely use the search feature at all. I'm happy to browse and hey, maybe I'll find a new species. Others don't want that experience. Some others probably do. That's irrelevant.

I requested JUSTIFICATION for making such a change, one of which would be supporting sponsors that would help provide such justification. Has anyone sufficiently explained here WHY this change is really needed?

Justification has been given in two separate threads in two years, now. The cresteds bury all the other species of geckos- even the gargoyles. If other people knew they could get some flickering of visibility, they would post more and shore up the traffic in the gecko classifieds once the cresteds were moved out. I know you're going to go "that's HEARSAY" at me when I say this, but I've seen it said on facebook groups and other forums- "I don't post my gargoyles/satanic leaf geckos/ l. williamsi/ etc because the cresteds will drown them". And no, I'm not going to go get you screenshots but you can feel free to find them. They are pretty frequent and shouldn't be difficult to find.

As for sponsors, you want $150 just to start a new clickable link with a new table that does the same thing the old geckos forum does and should literally almost be able to be copy/pasted in your tables with a few small changes. In 2002 that would've flown. It's 2015 and more and more people are abandoning forums in lieu of free sites like, again, facebook. You said yourself that traffic is down. I know you have hosting bills. I know you want those paid and I sympathize. But stomping your feet and telling people "if you don't give me $150 I'm not doing it!" is not how you encourage people to give you $150. Nor is saying, in that thread I posted, "well, there's different standards and every request like this must be judged on it's own standards". In a 13 year old forum there is no reason not to have a base of standards posted somewhere that enthusiasts of a specific type of animal can work toward to get their own little nook in the forums, for instance, with cresteds or that such.

If you said, "This is the minimum standard" in a post, people could strive toward that. And you could add things as necessary or take them away since I'm sure it's possible standards would change now and again. You sneered and said "nobody would read it just like how people ask why they can't reply to classifieds all the time!". People can't read it unless you write, man. I'd get sick of writing the same thing 500000000x a year too and I understand why you feel how you do. But they can't read something that isn't there.

I support the change. I don't even have a paid membership here and would not pay $50 for *any* forum to be made, in the history of this pretty green earth we live on. Like I said. I know you have to make ends meet. But, again, requiring that when other forums have less traffic than crested geckos would and/or have 0 sponsors, just comes off like you're going "who cares what you want? Give me money.". And nobody likes to hear that. Heck, it's why half the world is mad at their cable providers.

Let's take a closer look at this. Here is a list of forums who either have lower traffic than a crested gecko forum would (based on posts per day from the gecko forum) or have 0 sponsors:

Agamids http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=50 (0 sponsors, low traffic)

Arboreal boas/pythons http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=498 (1 sponsor of 3 needed, low traffic)

Hognose et al http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=502 (0 sponsors, which is Really surprising to me)

Pine, bull, gopher http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=506 (0 sponsors)

Rosy boas http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=509 (0 sponsors)

Other snakes http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=49 (0 sponsors)

Cornsnakes http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=501 (2 of 3 sponsors)

Kingsnakes http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=504 (2 of 3 sponsors)

Venomous http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=48 (0 sponsosr)

Monitors http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=52 (2 sponsors of 3)

Tegus http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=489 (2 sponsors of 3)

Other Lizards http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=53 (2 of 3 sponsors)

Iquanas http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=74 (1 of 3 sponsors)

Skinks http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=488 (0 sponsors)

Uros http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...play.php?f=490 (1 of 3 sponsors)

Amphibians http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=56 (1 of 3 sponsors)

Trading and Bartering http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=14 (0 sponsors, though I'm willing to give this one a pass to be honest)

Crocodilians http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=55 (0 sponsors)

All other herp stuff http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...splay.php?f=58 (0 sponsors)

Now, you're worried about traffic and I understand that. Let's compare the Hognose and etc forum to a projected Crested Geckos forum. From 10/19/2015-10/13/2015, the Hognose forum received 25 posts. That's not too bad. In the Geckos current collective for the Same Exact Time Period, Crested Geckos alone received 41 posts. That's one species.

Collectively, the other species in the Geckos forum received 37 other posts, not including wanted ads and 1 misplaced leopard gecko ad. Same time period.

You wanted justification. There you go. If that isn't justification for you, you will never, ever see it and nobody can force you to make a change.

So suppose I make that change. Then I have people who complain that they want it changed back because they LIKED having those crested gecko ads in that one forum where they could peruse other gecko ads for animals they were interested in. Should I then change it back to satisfy their complaint about the now existing situation?

I imagine you should tell them whatever you told them when leopard geckos broke away. If I were a mod? I'd tell them that we decided to give the crested geckos their own forum simply because we wanted to give the other geckos some room to breathe. And looking at those numbers above this quote, it's an honest answer. They can still persue other gecko ads. Nobody is saying geckos should only be crested geckos. They're just saying that all the crested ads are huge in quantity (and they are).

Take a look at the TOTAL number of registered members on this site. Then check in this thread and any others asking about this very same modification. Tell me what PERCENTAGE of the membership is asking for this change, please, and then explain why I should interpret that as an overwhelming force to be considered.

Tie two ball python people to a chair (no offense ball python friends, I love yall). They can only stand up when they both agree on everything. They will die arguing. If you want this sort of support, you're going to have to wait for decades until the crested geckos have the same sort of insane post level that ball pythons do and they have absolutely destroyed the gecko forum past the point of no return. Heck, maybe not even then. The reptile community at large isn't the best at agreeing to do things together. Six or seven of us go "hey" at once and then a few months later, maybe three or four people wave their hands and go "hey" again.

The pure simple fact of the matter is: this has been brought up multiple times in the past few years and crested geckos are extremely popular. One day they'll probably lose some interest (because that's how popular "easy" animals tend to do and it all regulates eventually) but that day isn't today and it will never be as dead as Agamids whose first 25 posts reach all the way back to the beginning of September 2015. Cresteds are very nearly as popular as leopard geckos by post volume alone, and having their own forum would only help to grow that interest WITHOUT hurting the other geckos.

Every time you shout "where is the support?!". It's right here, being "lazy" and posting you several paragraphs showing you pure, honest facts that it went and gathered itself when you asked for justification. Check them yourself and you will see that my numbers are right.

If this post doesn't convince you (and it likely won't), nothing will. You wanted an effort post? You got it. I like this site. It's a good site with a lot of solid people and I recommend it constantly. I want it to continue to last and to continue to grow, but for that to happen, man, you have to meet us halfway. And telling us to give you $150, when your justification is flawed as visibly outlined all over this post, is not doing that.

Sorry, I guess I could have been more clear in my statements, I believe. I am the one who will have to do the work to set up the new forum. There are no additional expenses involved in such a change beyond what I consider my time to be worth to me, and I apologize if it appears that I stated such. Sometimes I go "general" in a discussion of this nature that go outside the boundaries of a "specific" instance such as this. I have had lots of requests for changes that would require expenses in the form of custom programming, and I guess I sometimes fall into that mode of thinking when discussion making changes.

But basically, in a nutshell, my time is valuable to me, and I feel I do have the right to pick and choose how I spend my time. So if someone is going to become offended that I analyze all such requests with the above in mind, I am sorry, but that is just the way it is and going to be for the foreseeable future. This site is just littered with the bones of suggestions I have wasted my time trying over the years, "just to see how it works out". Please excuse me if I choose to deny such requests when I do not see any overwhelming need, or a clear cut and unambiguous benefit to the majority of the membership, to make a change.

And more to the point considering the guy who has to do the work suggested, if someone, or anyone, thinks that my wanting to limit my efforts to things that are worthwhile in a financial sense to this site and to ME, and therefore believe that I am some sort of money-grubbing asshole because my time has value to me and I CHOOSE how to spend that time, then so be it. If someone believes that my wanting to see a show of hands of potential sponsors for such a new forum, to see how WORTHWHILE others may think the suggestion realistically is, also makes me a money-grubbing asshole, then again, so be it. I am trying to run this like a business. I am trying to make sound BUSINESS decisions when I can. This site has to be profitable to me or it just ceases to exist. My retirement plans do not include forking money out of my retirement savings to pay for something like this.

Oh, and I sincerely do appreciate your efforts with the numbers to show some real data, but apparently you don't realize that the structure now in place for those forums is pretty much how it has been from the beginning. Matter of fact, it probably has been reduced somewhat as traffic patterns dictated that there were too many subsections that could be consolidated to simplify things. Specifically, the Leopard Gecko Classifieds started out with their own section here, separated from the Geckos Classifieds because at that time, it warranted that because of the traffic it used to have. Quite frankly, the Gecko Classifieds section just is not getting enough traffic to warrant separating out anything there. And just as frankly, if it were not for the large number of sponsors supporting that section, a pretty strong case could be made that the Leopard Gecko section SHOULD be consolidated into the Gecko Classifieds. Again, this is why I asked about the potential sponsors interested in a new section. Sorry that this point escaped you.

Secondly, yes, this is old software running this site. At the suggestion of my programmer, who I consider to be an expert in this sort of stuff. He says that the newer versions of vBulletin are better avoided as the current version we are using here is STABLE and relatively secure. So using this old software is by choice, and not because of laziness or ignorance, as some may think.

Anyway, as for real numbers, the Gecko Classifieds' ads are not even filling up the first page for a single day's worth of ads in that section. Today is 10/20. There are still ads for 10/17 showing on that first page. That does not indicate excessive traffic that needs to be addressed to me. If anything, this only makes a stronger case for consolidating even more of the classified sections together that don't have enough traffic nor sponsors to support their taking up space on this site.

So with the above points in mind, please count the number of people who have asked for this change in this thread and any others that you can find and get back to me if you think that is a significant number of members asking. I have learned from harsh experience that making changes based on a minor subset of the membership is usually a waste of time and effort and nine times out of ten gets an equal or greater number of people pissed because of the change and demand that it be changed back to what they are used to. So I simply filter any such requests though a filter of past experiences coupled with a BIG picture of whether any such change will actually be significantly beneficial for this site, and to be perfectly honest, ME.

And about the crack of the headaches being my job. Sorry, but no. My desire is to limit, reduce, and if at all possible, remove the headaches of running this site. There is a balance to be made concerning the amount of income this site brings, as compared to the number of headaches it gives me. This is true with probably most people with most jobs they have. If any job becomes too overloaded with headaches, then most people will bail out if they can. This place is no different to me in that respect. The lower the number of headaches, the lower the amount of income I will consider it worthwhile to keep it running. Too many headaches, and too low of income, then POOF, it will be gone. Does that not make any sense to anyone?

So when someone asks me to take on a headache here, please excuse me if I choose not to without a damned good reason why I should.

So nobody should request anything because it's all a "headache". We should shut up, give you money and enjoy that fauna even exists? Because man, I am not trying to be rude and you really don't seem like that type. But I can't really read that reply any other way than that and I feel like reading it like that is definitely missing like, inflection that I would normally hear in a voice rather than text.

I feel like I also oughta say: I don't take what you guys do for granted. I have worked with vBulletin and know it sucks in some ways and know that running forums can be a huge pain. And you guys obviously do good work.

Originally Posted by Inret

So nobody should request anything because it's all a "headache". We should shut up, give you money and enjoy that fauna even exists? Because man, I am not trying to be rude and you really don't seem like that type. But I can't really read that reply any other way than that and I feel like reading it like that is definitely missing like, inflection that I would normally hear in a voice rather than text.

We are apparently not communicating on the save wavelength, so I have nothing further to say to you.

You can read whatever inflections you want into that statement.

Is there a section for supporters (vendors, and members) that would be able to discuss topics, like this? As I realize that you have invested not only money but also time setting up this site, and keeping it running, I understand why you'd want to run this as a business.

You have far more experience in running a forum, than I do so I am more than likely missing something, but clearing up the gecko section by placing cresteds into their own forum, would allow other breeders who do not work with the more common species (leopards, cresteds.) a chance to be seen easier...

If they are seen easier, they'll have more customers and be more likely to purchase a slot as a supporting vendor especially as the less common geckos, are worked with more, you'll also have the sponsorship from cresteds here still...

Again, I might be totally wrong in this.

Originally Posted by MeadCountyRats

Is there a section for supporters (vendors, and members) that would be able to discuss topics, like this? As I realize that you have invested not only money but also time setting up this site, and keeping it running, I understand why you'd want to run this as a business.

You have far more experience in running a forum, than I do so I am more than likely missing something, but clearing up the gecko section by placing cresteds into their own forum, would allow other breeders who do not work with the more common species (leopards, cresteds.) a chance to be seen easier...

If they are seen easier, they'll have more customers and be more likely to purchase a slot as a supporting vendor especially as the less common geckos, are worked with more, you'll also have the sponsorship from cresteds here still...

Again, I might be totally wrong in this.

This has not been my experience with forums. Generally what attracts sponsors and advertisers is traffic. Plain and simple. They want to make their presence known in places where the greatest likelihood exists that a large number of people will see their animals or merchandise offered. Any forum with little to no traffic is not attractive to them for this reason, and they consider it a waste of time, much less money spent for advertising. In my opinion, moving crested geckos into their own separate forum will simply create two forum sections that have only light traffic after the move, and therefore give me one new forum that is not attractive to advertisers and sponsors, and then kill off the gecko section because traffic will had been greatly reduced there. So I will likely lose what sponsors are already in the geckos classifieds section after moving the crested geckos out of it because of the reduced traffic there.

Sorry, but I have seen this phenomenon happen time and time again, not just here, but in many other forum sites I have frequented. No one even likes to post in any forum where there is very little likelihood that they will get viewers, much less responses to their posts. Sponsors and advertisers are certainly not going to waste their hard earned money advertising in such areas.

The geckos classifieds here are just not getting the level of traffic where separating out any subclass of geckos is warranted at this time. If traffic increases to where things change, THEN bring this up again and I will take another look at addressing it.

So what is the traffic level I am referring to? I would need to see at least the first two pages filled with ads that were made in a single day. Anything less than that certainly will not be a burden for viewers to search through if one subclass of geckos is overpowering the rest of the offerings.

Sorry, I just do not see the need to make the change that has been suggested. And I honestly believe that it will actually be destructive to the Geckos Classifieds section, all things considered.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

So what is the traffic level I am referring to? I would need to see at least the first two pages filled with ads that were made in a single day. Anything less than that certainly will not be a burden for viewers to search through if one subclass of geckos is overpowering the rest of the offerings.

Then in that case can you tell me why there's so many forums that are, by your standards, completely unnecessary and unsponsored and all that jazz? Like, why not delete some if you're concerned about unnecessary and unsponsored forums?

I'm trying to understand your point of view. I really am, and I am trying so hard to be polite and nice and even friendly. But none of it seems to add up and I know ultimately it's your forum. That's fine. But you want justification from us, and when given it, just shrug and ignore it and sometimes even treat us poorly. What's your justification for not throwing arboreal pythons and boas back into pythons and boas? It still wouldn't be two full pages of ads a day for either of them. Go look at the posts. Compare.

Like, I understand wanting to be hesitant about it. But you're telling us apples are apples and we have literal linkable proof (that I already posted) that they're oranges. And you are just determined that they are apples and I have no idea why.

Doubtlessly you're just going to ignore me or give me an infraction or repost "I'm ignoring you" like you did earlier, but I don't understand how you can say this is a business for you and then act like this to your customers as a whole.