need help on breeding my veiled chams.

HOLD ON A SEC, FROM A MAJORITY OF THE BOOKS THAT I HAVE READ IT SAYS VERY SPECIFICALLY THAT THE FEMALE VEILED CHAMELEONS M U S T BE BRED BETWEEN THE AGE OF ABOUT 3 .5 TO 5MONTHS OF AGE OR THEY WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY DIE EGG BOUND. SO I AM NOT SO SURE WAITING UNTIL THE FEMALE IS A YEAR OLD TO BE BRED IS THE BEST IDEA. I HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY BRED CHAMELEONS BUT AM CURRENTLY RESEARCHING THE TOPIC. I HAVE A 5 MONTH OLD MALE AND I AM TRYING TO GET A YOUND FEMALE BUT I AM NOT SURE IF I CAN JUST LOWER TEMPERATURE AND REDUCE HUMIDITY AND LIGHT FOR A FEW WEEKS AND THAT WOULD BE THE CYCLING OR DO I NEED TO WAIT FOR WINTER TO GET A FEMALE AND CYCLE THE 2 THEN, OR JUST PUT THEM TOGETHER NOW.

IF ANYONE CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT,

AND ALSO IF I HAVE SAID ANYTHING THAT SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH PLEASE LET ME KNOW ALSO.

actually you can put them togehter whenever. I have a 5.5 total lenght female that is almost 5 months old if you want her. will accept some trades or will give her 2 U for 30+ shipping

That's great. You should do whatever you want then. Breeding chams for 10 years really makes no difference anyway. I obviously have no idea what I am talking about and neither does any other successful long term breeder. Please do as you wish. Vieldchamlvr took the info that Eric and I both posted and took whatever he wanted to hear out of it and you should too. Don't take advice of people who have been there. Just do what you want. I have seen hundreds of 3 month experts come and go. I have lived through the bad info in books, the bad info from breeders, we have all been where you are before. The difference is if you choose to take in all the available info and make a educated decision rather than letting your desire to breed and your ego get in the way. Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

i am sorry, i did not see all the previous postings. I am fairly new to the site and all i know is what i have read in books. i just checked out some of the older postings and was amazed at how different what i have read was. I in no way did i mean to insult ur intelligence, i am just learning. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I didnt mean to sound arrogant or anything i was just trying to write in the best interest of the chameleon based on what i have read.

Chameleon keeping has evolved more rapidly than possibly any other area of herp keeping. The info that was cutting edge a year or two before can be outdated and borderline dangerous now. With the evolving nature of the info and the difficulty in keeping these animals alive there is a tendency for novice keepers to somewhat bury their heads in the sand and ignore real world experience and advice from advanced keepers. Eric and I had a discussion on this thread about breeding strategies for veileds. We disagreed on several points but we both manged to listen to each others views and accept the others views because both were backed up by research and personal experience. I still don't advocate breeding veileds before 1 year of age but I am not sheltered enough to know that it does happen every day. The problem arises when someone with no experience comes and posts opinion as fact. they may mean no harm by it but many novice keepers treat these forums as the absolute end all of info and do very little research on their own. People like Eric and myself attempt to help keepers by sharing info and experience and it gets frustrating to constantly see the same type of attitude.

I took no personal offense to your post, or any other post on a forum for that matter. Sometimes you just have to tell people to do what they want. It's all they want to hear so it is all that they do hear. I'm glad that you are beginning by doing your reasearch. It's the people who put the book time in that are really successful with chams. Do the work and the success will follow. As far as books with more up to date info, you should check out Chameleons, their care and breeding by Linda Davidson as well as Chameleons, Natures hidden jewels by Petr Necas. For a listing of other cham books you can check out References on the cham database site. It also contains a few links to other cham related sites. Good luck with your chams.

Most of the available chameleon books at your local pet shops are already FAR outdated, and the same information was viewed by myself out of several different publications (concerning breeding the animals at 3.5-5 months of age, and missing the breeding gets them egg bound) BUT much more recent evidence suggests this is not nor has ever been the case. 5 months would be an awfully young animal to breed (Unless you had an exceptionally huge outdoor-grown specimen) especially if the animal is raised under artificial lighting circumstances and only 5.5" at 5 months of age (That's definitely too small for that age). Out of several different bloodlines of chameleons over two years, I have yet to see a 5 month animal that small, 8-12" (or more) seems consistent with the chams I raised indoors. But Jason is ABSOLUTELY correct- outdated information is available everywhere you look- but that does not necessarily make it correct information. There's no given up to date "bible of chameleon breeding" to my knowledge, and we would do well to heed the words of Jason's experiences. Success with chameleons is a relative experience and differs from keeper to keeper, the problem arises when keepers using different setups, lighting opinions, temperature, incubation of eggs ect. publish results, they're greatly individualized to fit the situation the keeper keeps the chams in and fundamentally different across the literature. In the sciences, this is called Bias; and many published biased result without even realizing they're doing so. As far as "cycling chams" goes, I have no opinion- I have never from day one of keeping veileds cycled them in any way with humidity fluctuations/temp. fluctuations ect. save for the natural cycle s of keeping them outdoors from mid-spring-mid fall then under Mercury Vapor UVB's overwinter indoors (at a steady ambient temp of 84 day, 78 night, basking spots to 100, the rest of the year they're left to face the outdoor elements until the low temps drop below 65 degrees or so. As long you have a male that considers his cage his territory, no cycling is needed- just introduce a female to his cage, and if he's old enough, he'll know what to do. -Eric Lago *MS Reptilian Hobbyists*

thank you for your reply,
as i said, i am just learning and the guidance of those with experience is priceless. I received a 3 month old male in May and was astonished to see how small a 3 month old veiled is and the first thought i had was an adult male or slightly younger to do some damage to something that small. So tell me would this be an acceptable enclosure to breed veileds in a 6ft by 4ft by 2ft with 2 or 3 hibiscus trees. i would probably just have my male and then a female. Also as far as lighting, are these 80 dollar reptisun bulbs that combine uva and uvb are they better than a flourescent fixture. Because from what i understand the flourescents should be replaced every 3-6 months and the other bulb can last more than a year.
And also if the male shows aggression to the female or vica versa, how long would you recommend i wait to try again. This is just for future reference, if it is not recommended to breed chams that young then ill wait till their older , but id like to have a set plan for when i do attempt to breed them.
Thanks again

That enclosure sounds great for you male when he is an adult but keeping them together in a cage will only lead to problems. Veileds are very aggessive chams and the males are usually very intolerant of other chams in their territory. Females will often be hounded to death by a mature male. Your best bet is to cage the seperately and only put them together for breeding purposes. Some keepers do multi house chams but until you have a firm base of cham keeping it is very difficult to recognize the subtle stress that can be displayed by this type of housing.

As far as a set plan. Good luck. Chams aren't really a set plan type of animal. If you think you have it figured out they will always do something to make things difficult for you. Your best plan is to do as Eric suggested. Put them together and see what happens. Veileds are a bit easier to deal with simply because the female displays receptive coloration when they are ready to breed. Purchase a few good books, do your research online and you will begin to recognize the behaviors and colors of your female. This will only help you in breeding them.

so would it be okay to have 2 2 x 2 x 4 cages and then introduce the female to his cage or should i build the 6ft x 2ft x 4ft and then 1 of the 2 x 2 x 4 and then move the female into the larger males cage to breed. Also how long does it usually take for them to breed, will they do it more than once, or do they breed and then seperate. Also for the large cage, would i need multiple basking spots or could i just have 1 say 100wt bulb on one side and he go to it whenever he needs to thermo regulate.

thanks

Either of those options would be fine. A nice big cage for the male would be pretty cool though. I would still only do one basking spot but make it a pretty strong one.

Veileds will usually mate once or twice and then the female has had more than enough. Soemtimes they will breed multiple times over a longer period of time but those cases aren't as common. It usually goes from mating to disregard to hate in a short amount of time so it's best to keep an eye on them. But remember, like with all chams, if you think you are ready for it they will change it up on you. That's why research is your best friend.