Ed Clark, again

Originally Posted by Otter_23

You know Ed this is why I choose to never do business with you. You come across as an expert yet take no responsibility for shipping in those conditions even though you have way more experience in this hobby still pass the buck as that is the risk you take.
Since she doesn't have the experience you have how is she to know what to do with a sick snake other than to take it to a vet, not everyone treats their own animals they don't have the experience you have. Had you replied to her earlier you probably could have saved her some money and communicated with her about what the appropriate steps (according to you ) should have been.
You make it sound as if it is common occurance for all snakes to have internal parasites. Is it Ed?
With your wealth of knowledge and many years of experience you shipped in temps that you should have never shipped in regardless of what the customers wants (in this case she didn't even insist and you never questioned the temps). You miss sexed your snake and they had internal parasites. Yet you still accept very little if any responsibility. One wonders what the outcome would be if this thread had not been brought up. You have a history of bullying inexperienced customers when they have questions or concerns and I still seeing you do that, tick tock.

As a veterinary technician at an exotics-equipped animal hospital, saying that it is "common" for snakes to have intestinal parasites is not the word I would use, but yes... If you feed snakes live prey you risk intestinal parasites every meal. And yes, parasites are seen quite often in live-eating reptiles. In my opinion, I as the buyer am responsible for testing and de-worming my snakes, not the seller. If you buy a puppy, and it tests positive for intestinal parasites, the breeder will not re-reimburse you this money. Maybe this is a bad metaphore, as this is the reptile business and people expect more from us... My opinion.

Originally Posted by illbeyoursoldier

As a veterinary technician at an exotics-equipped animal hospital, saying that it is "common" for snakes to have intestinal parasites is not the word I would use, but yes... If you feed snakes live prey you risk intestinal parasites every meal. And yes, parasites are seen quite often in live-eating reptiles. In my opinion, I as the buyer am responsible for testing and de-worming my snakes, not the seller. If you buy a puppy, and it tests positive for intestinal parasites, the breeder will not re-reimburse you this money. Maybe this is a bad metaphore, as this is the reptile business and people expect more from us... My opinion.

Parasite ova can survive in frozen rodents, and their ova can be passed to a snake. It may be less likely but it's still likely. I use to work with a lot of snakes (as a licensed vet tech) that were dewormed repeatedly and STILL had parasites, and they were not fed live rodents. So I would say it IS common in snakes, maybe not AS common in ball pythons that were captive bred. And I'd say at least 85-90% wild caught snake fecals I looked at were positive for at least one parasite, and many times, multiple parasites. Like you said, puppies have them (all the time!) and breeders DON'T cover that under any guarentee because they can be picked up in the environment. It's a standard thing with all pets to be dewormed on a regular basis. It does however look better on a breeder to have parasite free animals. If the animal isn't exhibiting clinical signs (a positive fecal is not a clinical sign) then I don't think a breeder should be held responsible.

Originally Posted by kmarsh

Both had parts in it, both took responsibility

I agree that both parties had parts in this but I disagree that both took responsibility. I'm sorry but I must have missed where did Ed took responsibility for shipping when he did. I did see where he blamed the buyer even after he first offered and clearly stated "I can ship right away".

It is obvious that Ed doesn't take the animals welfare into account after the money is in his hand. NOW, after this has been brought here he is willing to wait until the weather gets warmer. Some people don't work well without supervision. Bringing this to the BOI is providing that supervision that Ed apparently needs.

I would never ship geckos in weather that cold. I'd refund the customer's money if they insisted rather than ship. You can professionally pack using the highest quality thick brand new styro boxes and 60 hour heat packs but what if the heat pack(s) fail? This happens sometimes! What if their are flight delays due to weather or what if the package gets lost for 2-3 days (that happens sometimes too!)? It's just not worth risking the lives of our animals by shipping in temps that cold! Ed is not a stupid man and is well aware of all of the above facts. I'm really not sure why he did that.

Originally Posted by KelliH

I would never ship geckos in weather that cold. I'd refund the customer's money if they insisted rather than ship. You can professionally pack using the highest quality thick brand new styro boxes and 60 hour heat packs but what if the heat pack(s) fail? This happens sometimes! What if their are flight delays due to weather or what if the package gets lost for 2-3 days (that happens sometimes too!)? It's just not worth risking the lives of our animals by shipping in temps that cold! Ed is not a stupid man and is well aware of all of the above facts. I'm really not sure why he did that.

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i am currently holding dragons from dec. because temps havent been right in both places to ship. An holding dragons is alittle different then holding snakes. But i will not ship in these temps and my customers have no problems letting me call the shots when it comes to shipping. Besides who better to hold there animals then me. Customers seem to love it.

Originally Posted by DAND

I agree that both parties had parts in this but I disagree that both took responsibility. I'm sorry but I must have missed where did Ed took responsibility for shipping when he did. I did see where he blamed the buyer even after he first offered and clearly stated "I can ship right away".

It is obvious that Ed doesn't take the animals welfare into account after the money is in his hand. NOW, after this has been brought here he is willing to wait until the weather gets warmer. Some people don't work well without supervision. Bringing this to the BOI is providing that supervision that Ed apparently needs.

No one is arguing that Ed is not responsible for shipping the snake. He knows that, we all know that. It is however, it is ridiculous for the OP to assume she had absolutely no idea shipping in lower degree weather could be harmful to her snakes. As I said before, Ed is very much responsible for shipping this snake in the current terrible New Jersey weather, but the OP claiming "ignorance" and "not knowing better" is insufficient, and would not hold up in court or anywhere else - it just an attempt to remove all blame from herself with the snake's illness and the bills involved. Kmarsh said it better than I can:

Originally Posted by kmarsh

It is obvious if you read this whole thing that the buyer isn't just someone that just bought her first snake. She knows morphs and pastels, willing to pay 300.00 for a snake to breed, weights in grams, and this particular parasite. Yet she doesn't know the temp outside is too cold for a snake to be shipped in? She is about to begin a breeding project yet has failed to even think on shipping temps to get the snake safely to her? I think not. I think both thought it would be ok and he took what he thought would be enough protection with the heat packs and both did the deed.

"When did Rich make YOU a moderator? "
__________________
What part of "wish" didn't You understand Deborah. Last time I looked neither are You a moderator. I am entitled to my opinion just as you are.

Yes I did mean Mr. Clark and not Mr. Moore. Sorry got my train on two different tracks.

I know others say Mr. Clark didn't admit fault but I just didn't see it that way. IF he didn't feel he was at fault to some degree then the generous offer to get this resolved wouldn't have taken place. People that feel they aren't at fault generally don't give solutions. They stick to their guns and send nothing.
I just feel that at a time when the reptile industry as a whole is under attack we need to focus on fighting peta and laws that would seek to take away our rights to own our reptiles NOT fighting each other when things like this are already resolved.

i doubt that ED would have given that "resolve" without it being brought here. just my opinion.

Originally Posted by illbeyoursoldier

No one is arguing that Ed is not responsible for shipping the snake. He knows that, we all know that. It is however, it is ridiculous for the OP to assume she had absolutely no idea shipping in lower degree weather could be harmful to her snakes. As I said before, Ed is very much responsible for shipping this snake in the current terrible New Jersey weather, but the OP claiming "ignorance" and "not knowing better" is insufficient, and would not hold up in court or anywhere else - it just an attempt to remove all blame from herself with the snake's illness and the bills involved. Kmarsh said it better than I can:

I'm sorry but Nicole (OP) did accept responsibility for her part in allowing the snake to be shipped!

Originally Posted by rusticreptiles

I totally agree with you! I realize I was stupid in having the snake shipped, I just foolishly assumed since it's offered, it must be okay. I did not use common sense and wish I had!

That sure sounds like her accepting her part in this to me.

Oh, I know... she did accept her part and than asked for vet bill money right before she accepted Ed's offer... but it is no longer Nicole I was referring to. I assume she understand as she stated. My response was third party opinions and those I quoted who is still attempting to cast blame when the situation has been made good already.