Asian turtle crisis!!! PLEASE READ!!!

I just want to say that this is in no way intended to disrespect the Asian people or their culture. I just have some questions.

I have recently seen pics of both large and small turtles being butchered alive in an Asian market -- WARNING!!! These are VERY graphic pics!!!
(scroll down to the bottom of the page to find links)
Giant Malaysian and Softshelled Turtle

I barely even got past the first one cuz I was just overcome with tears. I was so devastated. Does anyone know if this goes on in the US? And what can we possibly do to educate people about a HUMANE way of slaughtering these animals? I understand that turtles are used for food and medicine, and I am by no means a vegan, but many of these turtles are endangered and butchering them while they're still alive is barbaric. There just has to be a better way. If anyone has any info, please reply to this post. I just want to get the message out there about conservation and so that others can be educated. All comments are appreciated!

man that sucks, I would love to have some of them as pets.

Butchering animals alive barbaric? By whose standards? The Chinese people do not find this barbaric, but rather an acceptable way of dispatching animals for culinary purposes. I understand how you may not like something like this type of butchering but, such is their way. They do much the same with many types of animals they use for food. I am pretty sure they would think of your use of the term barbaric as coming from someone who is trying to appear as socially superior. Are you superior socially to the Chinese? Are we superior and our ways superior to theirs? The same type of butchering of soft shell turtles is carried out right here in the USA. If you would like documentation, I offer to point you in the right direction to get the low down first hand. Just come to visit NYC's China Town (the one in Manhattan) and search the fish markets for one's that sell turtles. Their is one on Catherine Street that regularly sells Soft Shell Turtles and Bull Frogs as food items. As for the turtles, they cannot hit them on the head with a hammer reliably to kill them each time as the turtle retracts its head at the first sign of danger; they cannot shoot them as that is illegal in NYC; they can not rapidly cut their throats and bleed them out because again they retract their heads. If they whack them on the floor with a rapid and hard throw, it may or may not kill them, and probably would stun them; however, many of the internal organs may rupture ruining the meat. A stun gun may work fast and well but I imagine that would require some testing.

Go figure; I do not know the best way to off them - do you? If so, or even if you have some suggestions, why not write a letter to the Chinese Consulate in Washington, DC or write a letter to the United Nations. They would be appropriate places to start. Tell them how barbaric you believe is the act of butchering live turtles (well maybe use more respectable terms other than barbaric, and try to relate it into something that will garner sympathy for the turtles). Then give them a list of alternative methods for the butchers to use. Methods that are fast and reliable will likely be the ones easiest to get the butchers to change over to. Then give them an idea of how to spread the word throughout Asia and, how to get the people to accept your butchering methods and reasoning for them. Just so you know, I am not being facetious here but practical.

There just has to be a better way. If anyone has any info, please reply to this post. I just want to get the message out there about conservation and so that others can be educated.

If you are truly appalled by the methods used to butcher turtles, don't settle for just getting the message out, do something. If you want to really make a difference to change it, then you have to start somewhere and you have to be able to finish also. Someone who cries foul is not as well accepted as someone who more or less silently says foul, then goes to work, then cries aloud: Eureka, I have the better way! PETA and the Humane Society of the US would likely be, in my opinion, abject failures in most of Asia. They succeed, I believe, fairly well in places like the USA because too many people here have nothing better to do than try to control the lives of others by being negative as opposed to finding workable solutions that incorporates the old ways with the new. In China and most of Asia, people are trying to survive and don't care too much about being politically correct in the eyes of others. They will not likely accept anyone who demands change of their customs without that someone first offering them a practical and pleasing alternative.

As far as using endangered species, it is rather a surprise, at least to me, that Vietnam is included on the list of countries that are supposedly ravaging their fauna for the Chinese meat markets. Vietnam has some rather strict conservation orientated laws on the books as I recall, which were hastened into law after the decimation of their snake populations for the same markets. The rodent populations boomed and the Vietnamese apparently learned their lesson. You would think they might have some foresight when it came to other animals.

Well now that I have looked at that site again, maybe it is not so strange that Vietnam is included on the list. Those pictures to which you referred, and the main site itself seemingly were made up in or about 1997. That information seems to be about 7 years old. I do not doubt that some of that is still going on today but, I must wonder about the validity of any statements implying that the problem has not been in some manner addressed since then regarding the wholesale exploitation of the listed endangered species. It would be nice to know if any of the countries in question have enacted and enforced any legislation to protect turtles since 1997.

By the way the quotes at the top of that site's page, the one attributed to William Beebe, is as far as I am aware quite incorrect. Anyone who would, in my opinion, carelessly place what I believe to be such a misquote at the top of their web page and then use it as a conservation page must be suspect, in my opinion, of being at the least careless and at the worst possibly someone who cares not one lick about accuracy in their reporting. I wonder how careful they were with the accuracy of all the info they included on the page. This may seem like nit picking, but it does make me wonder if the other quotes are correct.

This is the quote that that site attributed to Mr. Beebe:

“When the last individual of a race of living things breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass away for such a one can be again.”

Not only is it incorrect in wording, but also in that it appears as a whole sentence and not a sentence fragment.

These are the words that, I believe, Mr. Beebe actually used, and I think this is also the complete sentence in which they were used:

"The beauty and genius of a work of art may be reconceived, though its first material expression be destroyed; a vanished harmony may yet again inspire the composer; but when the last individual of a race of living things breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again."

That quote is, I believe, from: BEEBE, William. The Bird, It's Form and Function (1906). It is so much more powerful, I think, when quoted in full.

Although I understand completely what he was saying, Mr. Beebe was strictly speaking somewhat incorrect when he implied it had to be the last individual of the species to pass away before one could ever be again. Actually, in many cases, the loss of chances of species survival would take place when the next to last of the species was lost, given that the last two were male and female. The hopes of continuing any species dependent upon males and females to reproduce would be lost once the last of either sex had been lost (not considering modern scientific hopes for DNA and artificial insemination). Therefore the hopelessness in the words: "...another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again" is arrived at even before the last individual of the species is lost. Just look at Lonesome George for a fine example of such in the herp world. Once he became the last of his species, hope for its continuation was lost despite his still living on (I think he is still alive???).

Of course, the Beebe quote contains, nonetheless, a very good sentiment and, possibly an excellent solution. In that quote maybe the answer of how to save the turtles: To reconceive the beauty of the work of nature may suffice to solve the threat to species problem. Of course we would need a bit of nature to help us out - our supplies could not have already been totally destroyed before we begin. For years people have, in essence, reconceived nature in order to use it, and that has often been done at great benefit to wild populations of animals. The crocodilian populations of the planet have been in danger of extinction because of the trade in their skins. Such trade was banned, and the bans had some positive effects and, a very bad effect also. The positive effects were more crocs and alligators in the wild, the bad effects were poachers killing off the wild crocs. This led to smuggling and an illicit trade in croc and alligator skins and meat. Now places like Australia and I believe, the USA allow commercial farming of these animals. The farming is the way we reconceive nature to our benefit, and in the case of crocodilians to their benefit. Because of farming, skins (at least from farm raised animals)became legal commodities in many places again. Once there is a large enough stock of such skins from successful breeding/ranching operations, the prices will fall somewhat, certainly below the black market prices. This helps eliminate poaching and the whole illicit trade in croc hides. Another benefit of this is the effect on the legitimate economy. More legal goods, more consumers, more jobs, more tax revenue generated, and so forth. Taxes raised from such efforts can be earmarked for use in wildlife conservation as are excise taxes on hunting and fishing goods here in the USA. Yes the sales of hunting and fishing supplies generates before market excise taxes that by law go directly to fund wildlife conservation - it is amazing how ultra leftist groups have been trying to have this law abolished and then put that money into the general fund. In fact the great majority of wildlife conservation programs in the USA are funded in great part by hunters and fisherman. The people who actually use the resource often are the ones to protect it, if only because when they use it they understand the true value of it.

The same could hold true for many species of turtles. Turtle farms in Asia are a thing that is not hard to imagine, especially since there are turtle farms already thriving in many parts of the world. Many species of turtles could be bred for food markets, for the pet trade and, for restocking of decimated wild populations. Such farms would increase productivity of the turtles or at least of the survivability of baby turtles. The farms would make it easier to collect turtles. It would quite possibly, after an initial price increase, lower the price of turtles on the market as there would be no need to take the risks of illegally capturing and then smuggling them. It was ease the burden on law enforcement regarding poaching, smuggling and illegal trade of turtles. It would create jobs maybe even for the now poachers/smugglers. Jobs would be created on the farms, in veterinary care, transportation, in regulatory offices (hopefully not too many bureaucrats though), and so forth. It would generate legal trade. It would generate taxes. The taxes, as shown above, could be used to fund conservation programs. Chances are that the animals used as food would be healthier than those taken from the wild. It is also possible that captive bred and raised animal might be released to restock wild populations from where the wild populations have been extirpated.

Yes with a good brush and some paint, the canvass can be worked into a fine reconception of how Nature meant it to be, with us living in harmony with and, even helping it survive.

All the best,
Glenn B

Wow, Glenn. I really respect and admire you. You really lay everything out on the line. Thank you for educating me as well! If I weren't such a little fishie in such as big sea, I'd be out there everyday doing everything I can to offer better solutions to everyone that farms animals of all kinds. It's so overwhelming and I didn't know where to begin. You gave me some great ideas as to where I can start though.

I do not in any way think I or my culture is superior to others. Americans do horrible things to animals too. Turtles have such a special place in my heart though. I suffer from a chronic pain condition and my turtles give me something to wake up for every day.

I don't know if this would work efficiently, but I've seen my vet do it to give injections to my tortoise -- the turtle's head can be pulled out with forceps, and "removed" that way.

What do you think about this?

Just so you know, I did not think you felt superior to anyone but, if you call someone's customs barbaric they may think so. As you say, I do ofeten lay it on the line, not to upset people but to get them and myself into deeper dialogue and to make us think more. It makes for more interesting conversations.

I would never have thought of a shot like the ones vets use. Now that yopu brought it up I do have some thoughts on it. Most people probably would not readily eat a turtle who had been given such an injection. Think about if they killed your chickens or beef cattle by first giving it an injection of anything. It is bad enough they load them down with antibiotics in their feed. Even though antibiotic laden feed is being curtailed somewhat, many people are opting to buy more expensive chickens that are organically raised - no added anything except organic foods and water. Some people also like their chickens fresh and go to great lengths to obtain freshly killed fowl at live fowl markets. I don't think they would be too pleased to see the retailer giving the chicken an injection before killing it.

Another thing about such injections is the possible effects the drug could have on humans who eat the animal that was drugged. It all probability the drug being used is some sort of sedative, tranquilizer or, muscle relaxant. You could eat the turtle and it could become addictive to say nothing of how whacked you might get. Wait a minute, as I sit here enjoying a glass of red wine I am beginning to see how some people might like that one - LOL. Really though, such drugs or chemicals could cause a health risk to the consumer. At the least a dose of wjhatever would be given to the turtles would probably be unacceptable to the consumer.

The more I think of it, a quick stun with something like a stun gun or cattle prod might do the trick to render the turles unconscious or stunned to the point of feeling little to no pain. In that case the head would probably be easy to extract and then the turtle could be given a quick coup de gras instead of butchering it while alive. The stun gun type of thing would probably pass muster with any government before would an injection of anything into an animal used for foods. It would also probably be more likely to be acceptable to the consumer.

All the best,
Glenn B

do you get as upset when they toss live lobsters into boiling water?

I realize that last question was not for me but, all this talk of turtles and lobsters is getting me hungry. Don't get me wrong, I like turtles, I started my keeping of herps with a Red Earred Slider and, I currently have a Musk Turtle and two Herman's Torts. Yet, I also am pretty open to things I will eat. I have tried turtle soup before, and turtle meat and they were delicious (Snapping Turtle each time I think). I also love lobster when I can afford it, and with a mortgage, my daughter in college and my son soon enough to be in college, it is hard to even think of when I'll have any again.

Yet I can understand how someone has an affinity for turtles that makes them feel sad when they see a turtle butchered that way. I don't necessarily agree with that feeling but, I don't necessarily think it wrong for someone to want to see the butchering method maybe changed; that is so long as they do not want to see an end to the practice of eating turtles and so long as they do not want to require some ridiculous set of regulations as to how a turlte must be butchered.

All the best, GB

im sure they have been doing it the same way for years. I keep and breed redfoots I have never ate turtles. but i know that down in south america they munch my buddys down like candy. nothing we can really do about it. what I am upset about is people in the us eating gopher torts. I heard about it a few times on some posts on fauna. now that is something that pisses me off.

Eating an endangered or protected species is pretty bad as I see it, well in this country anyhow. In china it may be more a survival thing or even more of an ignorance thing. As for Gopher torts, I think they are protected everywhere but, that only is a guess on my part. If on the other hand they are fair game in some areas, well they are then fair food for the table. Then, I would not be upset over it although, I understand that some may be.

I do ot know if there is an animal out there that I would not consider eating just because it is the same as some sort of animal I like or have kept as a pet. I am not saying there are none that I would not try. I would be very hesitant to eat roaches for instance, unless I was starving and maybe even then. Yet, I have eaten animals that many Americans would probably not consider eating. These include snakes, turtles, small birds such as starlings and sparrows, pigeon, snails, horse meat ( that is a whole story onto itself)and, lots of wild game. If the thought of it does not gross me out, then I would try it. Right now I am breeding mice and am wondering how the wife would take to some in the sauce (only kidding about the mice - really).

All the best,
GB

gophers are defently endangerd at least in florida, fines are handed out just for touching those guys. yeah i defently understand what you are saying some people feel stronger about the turtle eating and buchering thing becuse they are pets over here. but in other countrys turtles are the other white meat.