Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

Thanks you as well for your intelligent response. I understand that different people have different opinions and I have no problem with that. I cannot speak for everyone that performs the surgeries on the mortality rates, I cannot only answer from my own experience. I can however say, as far as the high mortality rates on this end, that is completely a rumor started to justify the condition of the animals that were sent here. There has only been two fatalities that I know of(in my experience) for the entire time I have dealt in venomoids, these were isolated incidents and are by no means a common occurance.
Basically, there is some stress on the animal, but no more than any other instance in which a snake is tailed,bagged,or disturbed. I will also say that you must have established quality animals to perform the surgery on, animals that are feeding and doing great. You cannot expect to take an animal that is sick and emaciated and expect the animal to survive and flourish after the surgery. In my experience, it is best to have the animal for a long enough time that it is eating well, well hydrated, and has good body weight. That is a must, if an animal is in terrible condition, it will not survive the surgery, and with that knowledge, there is no excuse and it would be immoral in my opinion to perform the surgery on an animal in that condition.
Thanks
Kevin Smith

"I cannot only answer from my own experience"

sorry, that should have said that "I CAN only answer from my own experience".
Thanks
Kevin Smith

Kevin, I am keeping my remarks about you off this thread as we were asked to do, so why don't you show some restraint and do the same. If you want to insist on taking false stabs at me, bring it back where it belongs... to the other thread. I am asking you nicely, and the others would appreciate it also.

Drop it Ray, I was not making stabs at you and my post had nothing to do with you. I was answering another question of someone else's, it just so happened that I had to refer to the original thread to explain it.
Kevin Smith

Kevin, "Not making stabs at me, and your post had nothing to do with me?????? Yet another LIE!!! Read what you wrote:

"I will not answer or respond to any other posts from Ray. The only comment I will make is that just because an animal is imported, there is still no excuse to sell animals in the condition that they were sold by Ray. Glades,strictly,Jay at exotic jungle,ect all sell quality animals in good condition, I just have yet to hear an excuse from Ray that explains why the animals sold to me were in such terrible shape after 12weeks in his care?? I am curious to know if he knows how to treat his animals? If not, who does treat them? But I won't get an honest answer from that. "

Not only did you mention me 3 times, this whole paragraph is exclusively about me.

Now take it to the BOI thread with the rest of you childish lies!

I will admit that was about you, I apologize for using you as an example. You are right Ray, you are Right, there now you can go back to whatever you were doing and let this thread get back to the intelligent debate that was interupted by the rant.
Kevin Smith

Kevin, I have read all of both of these threads, and joined this evening just to write this one post to you.

First off, I will tell you that I am NOT a friend of Ray Hunter, but I am a satisfied repeat customer of his. So please don't start the “Ray’s Friend” crap with me like you did Mr. Goushaw. I have been to Ray’s warehouse on many occasions, and aside from the occasional cobra fecal that one might expect to see, he takes very good care of his animals. They are kept hydrated, and the cages are cleaner than I would expect from one person maintaining a large warehouse with approximately 700 animals coming in and going out at any given time. He has a separate area that he keeps animals that come in sick or questionable. I have at times tried to purchase B-grade animals from him, and he will refuse to sell me something that is not up to standard. I know many other customers of Ray’s that ALL have the same opinion of Ray and his M.O. for running that operation. Knowing him as I do, I find it highly unlikely that he would send B-grade, or less as you claim, animals to you after the many orders you have placed with him, and the money you both claim Ken has paid him for the animals he has sent you over the past year. We call that ‘career suicide’. I work in the Psych field in Palm Beach, and am no doctor, but Ray strikes me as the entirely opposite person than that who would do something like that. He appears to be above average intelligence, with quite an extensive medical knowledge, as well as his knowledge of venomous snakes, and his somewhat bizarre ability to handle venomous snakes. No, sir, I’m sorry, but I will never believe he would do as you say, and apparently none of the other thread posters believed you either. Never the less, IF the animals were as bad as you claimed them to be, you would have been able to spot that immediately as you unpacked them, at which time ANYONE in this biz, as you are, would phone Ray or Ricky (who is ultimately responsible for every animal that goes in, is in, or goes out of that facility) and complained straight away. NOT between 4 to 10 days after the fact! And since Ken has stated that you have surgically altered all of the Monocle Cobras within 4 days of getting them (which I happen to know is not wise to put that kind of stress on an imported, parasitic, as per Ray’s own admission of not having treated them for parasites, snake that by your admission was not afforded pre-surgical antibiotics) it seems quite believable that the snakes that died may very well have died during or soon after your attempt to conduct your venomoid surgery on them. I realize you shall retort with “I never admitted that I perform the surgeries myself”, but you refuse on many occasions to deny it also, which infers that you are doing the surgery. You made a claim that Ray sent you a five foot Gaboon Viper that weighed out at 4 pounds, than state that you don’t even have a scale to which to weigh the snake with. Then you refuse (or ignore) MANY peoples request to post the pictures of the snake to prove your accusations against Ray. Fortunately it appears that everyone has seen through your ill game against Ray, and as it turned out, post by post you continue to make yourself look more and more foolish by side-stepping valid questions, and contradicting your own statements over and over. Your name-calling, and consequent level 15 warning level further validate Ray’s remarks of your childishness. Then you turn on all the thread posters, calling them “Idiots” and rude names, because they either saw through you numerous false statements, or asked you a question that you were uncomfortable about, causing you to ignore the questions all together.
From reading the latest thread, I see no reason, other than out of malice, to have ever brought up the subject of your dealings with Ray (be they direct, or indirect). This after you promised him that you would drop the whole issue to get him to stop posting posts that were frankly making you look like a fibbing 10 year old. Then after members ask you and Ray to take the issue back to the propper thread, you have to try and get the last word in against Ray, who has already excussed himself to the appropriate thread. And then have the audacity to state that the post had nothing to do with him, even though one whole paragraph is used to slam him, and even mentions his name three times in it???? How can you ever expect anyone to accept your claims of being an honest and truthful person after such a bold face lie? Can it be any wonder to you that people that don’t even know Ray are believing his side of the story instead of yours, when you are caught is such an outrageous lie? You, sir, should have quit while you were only a little behind, and let this shame to you pass by, instead of going to another thread and sneaking indirect marks against Ray into a thread that you would have been able to be a part of and state your views without ever bringing up an issue that should be most embarrassing to you. But then, judging by your posts, perhaps you are not a mature enough businessman that you would be embarrassed after being made such a fool by yourself.
I realize that I shall become another target of your name-calling or whatever, but no matter, as I said, I just wanted to make this statement. I do not sell animals, so there is nothing you can say about me that could harm me in any way.

You have indeed proven yourself to be an untruthful person, as well as quite childish. Again, reading all 15 levels of your warning level alone backs up that statement.

I too am curious to finally see if you can directly answer the question that has been put to you too many times to count..... Do you do venomoid surgery? That requires a “yes” or a “no” answer. Should not be too hard for you to answer. DO YOU? Or HAVE YOU?

Amazed,
Jerry Stano

"And since Ken has stated that you have surgically altered all of the Monocle Cobras within 4 days of getting them"

I never said this and I know for a fact that you have not spoken to Ken, so why would you even try and say that. This thread has also successfully been ruined by Ray(for the second time). NONE OF THE SNAKES HAVE BEEN ALTERED, THEY WERE SICK AND WERE REPORTED. Read my above post, I mentioned that snakes would have to be in top notch condition to be altered. I still have two unaltered ones here that were of the few survivors from the shipment. I guess this thread is hopeless and is going to turn into a flame war, so it is not worth even replying to. I apologize to everyone that was contributing intelligently to this thread, I should have never posted or tried to contribute to it, since I should have known that Ray and His "happy" customers would have turned it into a flame war.
Kevin Smith

Kevin, The point of you having altered the monocle Cobras was made in the first thread, and was left undisputed by you. Ken had told Ray that the cobras had already been altered within 4 days of their arrival to you. So now Ken is a liar also?

In my line of work (with the mentally diabled) we are familiar with all the tricks you are playing. You take one issue, address it extensively, and then ignore more important points or in this case questions. For example the last part of my post was asking you a direct question about you performing venomoid surgery. It was intentionally placed at the end so that it would stick in you mind when you reply, yet once again, you skated right over it. So forget about what Ken said, and what Ray said, and everything else for that matter....

DO YOU or HAVE YOU EVER PERFORMED YOUR OWN VENOMOID SURGERIES?

YES or NO?

That I never commented on any of the monocles being altered, I have stated over and over that none of the snakes were altered. Did you read that or is that beyond your biased view? You know nothing of the situation except for the lies that were put forth by Ray. Were you on the phone with Ken??? Have you ever spoken to him??? NO YOU HAVEN'T, so you have no idea what the truth of the matter is. If you are so smart and "a professional shrink", you would have read the original threads and would also not throw accusations without knowing the facts first hand. Oh yeah, and in case you haven't figured it out, first hand would involve being part of the discussion or the business deal in question, which you are neither, so how can you even claim to know anything of the situation except for your own personal dealings with Ray. You are obviously only here to cause flames or else you wouldn't be making accusations that you cannot back up.
Kevin Smith