Our encounter with Pythons.net

WARNING – This is not for the faint of heart….



January 7th, we purchased a beautiful baby albino female boa to add to our collection. She had the tiniest little kink at the tip of her tail. In fact, it was one of the reasons we decided to purchase her. We know that something so small is most likely insignificant and realized that it gave her character. Something that each animal in our household has. It took a few days to get the funds transferred and to also wait for shipping temps to be more appropriate. In the meantime, we were assured that she would be well cared for and very healthy when she arrived. Little did we suspect, that this would not be the case.

Upon receipt of the package on 1/25, it appeared to be packed quite well. She was housed in a small container, along with a couple of heat packs surrounding the area. When we first opened the container, we were a little shocked at how small she was. This was a snake who was born on June 16th, 2004, according to the documentation/ad. Now, we have had several new arrivals in the last week, most of which were very close to the same age. In fact, this little girl was a couple of months older than some. The other boas were at least 2 feet in length. This one appeared just barely over a foot. Ok, a little concern there. But how’s her color? She looks ok, but…a bit thin. Hmm…Really thin. So thin that her spine was visible through her scales and she had folds of skin a half inch in depth. Keep in mind, she’s just barely over a foot long. Maybe she’s just malnourished. Maybe she just needs some food and needs to gain a little weight. Is she alert? Does she flick her tongue? Not very well, for either. So the following email took place:

“Just received the package. She's very cute, and a Lot smaller than I
expected her to be. I'm actually a little concerned with her state.
She's extremely thin and her skin is Very loose. She appears to be quite dehydrated. I've had snakes for the last 5 years, and I've purchased 13 boas in the last few months. Most are around her age, and none of them were this skinny when they arrived. I know you said she hasn't been fed in about 2 weeks, but even if she were plump before, after two weeks of not eating, she shouldn't be anywhere near this dehydrated.

I did a bit of research about you, and everything that I found gave you
nothing but excellent praise. Everything on this picture cd looks very
good! This may be just a fluke in this one order, but it does raise some concern. Before you think negatively, I clearly state; I am NOT mad about this. Nor upset. Just concerned.”


The Reply:

“No I don’t think negatively. She is a little thin. I agree with you, I
Didn’t notice at first until I put her in the deli cup and looked at her to ship then I was like hmmm looking a little thin there. She was the slowest starter in the bunch, it took her a little longer to feed then the rest. But she is really great now. She feeds really well. I usually just maintenance feed my animals once per week that are being sold. I have been doing alot of traveling through the holidays so I haven’t been feeding them that much, and that girl in the last month grew some length without the aid of alot of food so she got a little thin. Any how I am super glad she arrived there, I was worried with all of these temperatures and things.
She did have water 24/7 in her enclosure. Take her home, set her up and feed her tomorrow. I always stand 100% behind my animals and always want you to be happy with your purchase. If you have any problems feeding her or any other problems with her just let me know. I'm sure everything will be ok though, she’s a great eater and should pack on the weight quickly if not just let me know. So relax you are 100% covered for her ok? No worries, and keep in touch so I know how she’s doing.

I do apologize that she was that thin. I really didn’t notice until she was in the deli cup. I wasn’t trying to sell you a thin animal or anything on purpose. So accept my apologies and get that girl some weight and let me know how things go with her ok?”

My other half and I decided to leave work (very) early, to take her home. She was in serious need of care. Once we got her home, we noticed just how lethargic she was. She could barely hold her head up. We took the following pictures of her, to send to the breeder, including these videos (QuickTime required to view).




WARNING again – This is not for the faint of heart….




















Quick Time videos:

http://www.crypticangel.net/kink/DSCN0383.MOV

http://www.crypticangel.net/kink/DSCN0384.MOV

http://www.crypticangel.net/kink/DSCN0398.MOV



As you will clearly see, there is something wrong here. The folds in the skin, the inability to right herself, and the complete lack of muscle control.

So I called the breeder to talk about this. I knew there was something amiss. Upon detailing the situation, his reply was to give her some water and try feeding her tomorrow. Ummm…excuse me….does this not raise a “neurological dysfunction” flag to anyone? This is not going to be solved by water. Even despite that notion, we soaked her in Pedialyte for a time, hoping to replenish at least some hydration and give her some strength. The breeder assured me that she would be fine, and repeated how healthy she was before he shipped her. Upon further conversation, it was disclosed that the breeder had been out of town for a while, had not fed her in 2 weeks, and she probably did not have her water changed either. Ok, red flag. You don’t go over 2 weeks not feeding a snake this young. And you most certainly ALWAYS maintain a fresh water supply. I don’t care what the excuse is, vacation or not, animals need to be tended to. I asked about how often she was handled. The reply was that she never was really handled. Ok, so how can you verify the health of a snake that you never really handled, except to place her in a cup to be shipped off? Back to the conversation, I was told, “not to worry about it, she most likely will be fine, no need to take her to a vet”, and “something may have happened to her during shipping”. Are you kidding? This snake will be lucky to make it through the night. Let’s address the shipping issue; the box arrived in pristine condition. No dents, no misplaced tape, not even a scuff mark from being placed in the truck. Are you telling me this condition happened within 24 hours during her shipment? Not to mention, that it wasn’t even a full 24 hours for the entire shipping duration. The breeder advised me that he had refunded my payment, and if she managed to survive, to go ahead and send the payment back to him; if she passed away, then no payment would be required. Ya think? At no point was any ownership of the situation established. Ok, we don’t need a vet to tell us, something is wrong with this snake, and whatever it was did NOT happen in less than 24 hours. The breeder suggested not even bothering to take her to a vet, because he admitted that it didn’t sound good for her. I was advised not to spend the money that it would cost for diagnosis. Ok, sure, so you’re not going to cover any investigative vet bills. That’s ok, I expected that. My thought on that was, wouldn’t you even want to know what this was about? What could have caused this? Nope. No interest what so ever. So it seemed.

Long story even longer, she did not survive the night. Strict quarantine was maintained and her environment couldn’t have been better. Shortly before we put her down for the night, Annie took her out of the cage and held her. She was barely moving and suddenly, she went limp and her body could no longer hold itself up. Annie held her by the lower portion of her tail and she was upside down. She opened her mouth for a second, then had a violent seizure. We knew that it wouldn’t be long. With tears in her eyes, Annie placed her as gently as she could back inside her cage. We awoke to her coiled up, and stiff as death itself. My other half and I agreed that we should have a necropsy performed. Even though we would be paying for it ourselves, it was worth it to have final closure and understanding. One of our main concerns was that if this was indeed congenital or worse; IBD, then any other snake that was purchased from this individual should be accounted for and verified of health. We all know that IBD sometimes can strike with very little visible symptoms, until it’s long too late. On the way to our vet, we called the breeder. No answer, so we left a message. We arrived to the vet and asked for the evaluation to be performed. They agreed. And we agreed to the $162 in costs. The moment we exited the office, the breeder had called back. Upon speaking with him, I relayed the information of her death and that we were having a necropsy performed. The breeder was hesitant and said “well, I wouldn’t go that far”. Ok, just how far would you go for one of your snakes? How far would you go to confirm whether or not there was a potential genetic or Viral problem that you are perpetuating, with or without your knowledge? I don’t know about you, or him, but I’m willing to go as far as it takes. For several reasons.

The community, the business reputation, the personal reputation, and oh yes; the ANIMALS.

We had the necropsy completed today and the following results were disclosed from
The Exotic Pet and Bird Clinic
Dr. Skip Nelson
425.827.6613

Report states that Kink (what we called her) died of the following.

Complete Edema (Abnormal interstitial fluid accumulation) :
Causes include but are not limited to -
• Congestive heart failure, a condition in which the heart can no longer pump efficiently, causes fluid buildup in the lungs and other parts of the body. Swelling is often most visible in the feet and ankles.
• Low protein levels in the blood caused by malnutrition, kidney and liver disease can cause edema. The proteins help to hold salt and water inside the blood vessels so fluid does not leak out into the tissues. If the most abundant blood protein, called albumin, gets too low, fluid is retained and edema occurs, especially in the feet, ankles and lower legs.
(http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH...9339/9883.html)
Lesion of the heart - A small white vein across the heart.
Full Gall Bladder - Most likely caused by disease or improper feeding.
The report also states that there were no gut contents at all, which also pointed to neglect. His final conclusion : “This was a long standing sickness and not something that happened in the last 48 hours, nor in the last 2 weeks. A disturbingly CLEAR sign of neglect.”

This breaks our heart. This poor little snake never got the chance to be healthy.
Now, we try to be very professional in our business. That includes being courteous to customers as well as coworkers in the business. And as much as we HATE to do this, if a community warning is warranted, then it is our obligation to do it. We do not want to bash this individual, his reputation, or his company. This is black and white; a case for concern. We implore ANYONE who has purchased from this company in the recent or even distant past to take the extra time; LOOK over your animals! Are they acting strangely? Are there any remote signs of something just not seeming right? Our main concern besides the animals themselves, is the perpetuation of problematic stock being introduced into the community. We maintain over 10,000 dollars invested into our current stock, and many of you maintain substantially more. As you all know, all it takes is one simple mistake to wipe out everything that you have worked for, and to kill the animals that we love without mercy. Does this come down to ethics? Most certainly so. We researched quite a bit on this breeder and found NOTHING but positive enforcement. And yet we still ended on this horrifying experience. Was it a one time fluke? Maybe. But are we willing to test fate? Absolutely not. Again and again, this is NOT a personal bash. This is not meant to discredit anyone. As business owners ourselves, it pains us when something like this needs to be made public, because we know it can be potentially devastating to business. What’s more important than that?

The animals and those they affect.

If anyone would like more information, please feel free to contact us.
Annie & Liam Sevier
206.351.8578

Although your names are posted in your profile and at the end of the post, the person who actually writes the post must post their name. We need to know who actually wrote the post.

We have both collaborated to the acuracy of the post. So to answer the question, we have both taken the time to add this to the forum.

Liam Sevier
Annie Sevier

I have had a similar situation with a "breeder", actually a broker(with a great reputation) but it wasn't nearly as bad as far as the health of the animal is concerned. Though, potentially could have been.

Questionid this "breeder" actually breed this animal? I had seen an animal awhile back advertised with a kink on it's tail only to be advertised by someone else a couple of weeks later. It could have been another Boa but they looked very similar and the same kink too. Coincidence? Just curious if he actually bred the animals parents or he brokered it.


Sorry for your loss.

Bthacker

I've had baby boas go off feed voluntarily for about 3 weeks without looking like that. Usually it was because they wanted live prey and I didn't have any available, but continued to offer them thawed.

Any snake that looks like that has been that way for awhile. The folded skin makes me think dehydration. Snakes going downhill that far don't appear like that overnight, and certainly NOT in two weeks unless something is seriously wrong (IBD/parasites will do that).

I raise dwarf Bci, but I've seen some baby columbians before, and they were easily twice that size, if not bigger, at that age.

He should not have ever sold the snake in that condition. That's terrible. At least you got your money back.

Yeah, you need to make sure and request a refund. He did admit to seeing it thin. I must admit, a snake in that poor of condition was NOT feeding. Or it had a bad case of parasites. That would clean out a baby ASAP. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that the snake was NOT feeding for him and he DID attempt to feed it. I know that wouldn’t be much of a benefit when it comes to ethics, but I just don’t think anyone with expensive snakes would be so careless and abusive as not to have at least tried feeding it. I hope things turn out for you
Thanks, Jim

The animal was most likely a birth defect. You have to understand that just like humans and any other speices some normal looking animals will be born with organ problems, circulatory problems, respiratory problems and other factors that they will likely die from or at the very least not thrive. When I have a baby like that one I not only don't sell it but it would be medicated if needed and force fed at the very least. You are due a full refund. If there is any doubt the vet report should be used as leverage. Please tell us what happens.

Evan you might have missed it but the payment was refunded prior to the animals demise. That is not the issue. The fact of this post that disturbs me is that the breeder noticed that the animals was sub par prior to shipping and shipped it anyway. While it is true that shipping can exacerbate an existing condition and take a mild problem and make it more severe, this does not seem to be the case given the qanimal's obviuos physical problems.

While it does speak well of the breeder that the refund was offerred freely when problems were identified, the animal should never have been shipped in the first place. It is always preferable to disappoint a customer before shipping the animal than to inflict a problem on them.

While it does speak well of the breeder that the refund was offerred freely when problems were identified, the animal should never have been shipped in the first place. It is always preferable to disappoint a customer before shipping the animal than to inflict a problem on them.

I agree completely. That snake should never have been shipped period. At least you got your money back....it could've been alot worse, Trust me, I know from personal experience.

it was posted so reasonably. As I recall that animal with the slightly kinked tail was posted at about $700 or so which was well below market. I suspect the low ball price had little to do with the slightly kinked tail and everything to do with it's poor overall health. When the animal was posted for sale it didn't look anything like the pics in this thread. In my opinion a condition like that doesn't happen overnight. I'm not sure if the animal's demise could have been prevented or not but at least the money was refunded promptly. I think in that regard the seller did the right thing. The bottom line is it never should have been shipped to begin with. I'd be very surprised if it were to happen again because it's just not worth risking one's reputation over. I'm sure in retrospect Stuart regrets having ever shipped it. Up until now I've never heard of any problems with him.