Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

Hi. Please see the attached conversation between myself and Billy Gangemi. Tortoise #1 died this morning, and Tortoise #2 has started to go downhill. I'm going crazy trying to save this second tortoise, but despite meds, hydration, soaking, heat, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, and she has now stopped eating as he did. The tortoises were said to be 4 years old, but are 10 and both were underweight, respiratory infection, and full of parasites. According to the (very established) Vet, they were clearly wild caught. If you have advice for me, please share. Also, I would like to know how many of the original batch of Russian Tortoises from the Ukraine are still alive, how many there were, where they are being kept, etc. I am concerned not only for our remaining tortoise, but for the others who were obviously wild caught in the Ukraine then shipped here. Thanks to anyone who can help.

I would be talking to Billy himself, but he blocked me because he was tired of my questions. (see conversation)

-Lydia

As you can all see I offered her money back and replacement tortoises. Thanks for all the folks who called me and informed me of this name slandering. As you can see by her messages I was more then willing to work with her, but that wasn't good enough. These were bought back almost a month ago and now she is complaining about them. As we all know in the reptile hobby things can change and go down hill especially when dealing with imported reptiles. I still am willing to give a refund or replace the other pair. I have had no other problems with this batch of tortoises. Thanks again.

This person seems concerned for the health of animals, her's and others. I don't detect accusations of slander in her words or tone.

I don't think she is angry with you or placing blame on you (she is clear about that in the texts) or demanding money or replacement animals, just advice.

Originally Posted by lydiacourtney

Hi. Please see the attached conversation between myself and Billy Gangemi. Tortoise #1 died this morning, and Tortoise #2 has started to go downhill. I'm going crazy trying to save this second tortoise, but despite meds, hydration, soaking, heat, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, and she has now stopped eating as he did. The tortoises were said to be 4 years old, but are 10 and both were underweight, respiratory infection, and full of parasites. According to the (very established) Vet, they were clearly wild caught. If you have advice for me, please share. Also, I would like to know how many of the original batch of Russian Tortoises from the Ukraine are still alive, how many there were, where they are being kept, etc. I am concerned not only for our remaining tortoise, but for the others who were obviously wild caught in the Ukraine then shipped here. Thanks to anyone who can help.

I would be talking to Billy himself, but he blocked me because he was tired of my questions. (see conversation)

-Lydia

Lydia,
I'm not a Vet, but what I can tell you is Ceftazidime is the drug of choice by some of the most recognized Vets in the Tortoise & Turtle world, one I know personally & have both volumes of his books on reptile medicine & surgery is Dr. Doug Mader, in Marathon, FL. at Marathon Veterinary Hospital, 5001 Overseas Hwy. 305-743-7099 24hrs.

They might could help your Vet with your tortoise's issues??

I read the conversation between you & Billy, flagyl & panacur isn't going help the upper respiratory.

He also states he'll refund you in full or replace the tortoises at the next show...

JMHO, I'd take the refund, why would any one want to take on another sick critter....

When dealing with importers, or those who buy and flip from importers, these are the chances you take...

Best of luck to the remaining tortoise....

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

Lydia, it is unfortunate what you are going through with your tortoises. I do not keep this species, so am unable to offer any care advice. However I do have some suggestions that you may find useful, with respect to herp transactions in general:
- When there is a problem, notify the seller immediately, if for no other reason than to document that there was a problem when it was received. The seller has no control over how the buyer keeps the animal, and what may happen to the animal, days or weeks down the road. They are naturally going to be skeptical when a problem is brought to their attention a month later.
- If you are buying wild caught herps, always assume that there will be health issues. They go through a great deal of stress before you receive them, and even if the seller has them active and feeding, they should be seen by a qualified reptile vet. Also assume the animals have internal parasites, and have the vet do a fecal check. There is always a risk of loss or health issues with any herp, but especially more so with wild caught, despite everything you and your vet do.
- When you contact a seller with a problem, be clear, concise, and courteous. This is no different than returning an item at a retail store- you get better results when you don't immediately take an adversarial approach. I'm sorry, but in your texts, you gave an impression of being combative very quickly. Your urgency was clear enough, but it was also clear that the seller wasn't immediately able to text you detailed husbandry advice.
- Although a good seller will generally be willing to give husbandry advice, don't rely solely on them. Take it upon yourself to thoroughly research the needs of the given species. With a commonly kept species such as Russian tortoise, you should be able to find lots of information without having to rely on the seller.
- Do not demand information that really isn't relevant to the transaction. Many businesses do not give out information such as where they purchase the products that they sell; herp sellers are no different. Knowing the sellers source in Ukraine isn't going to help your tortoises.
- When the seller offers a refund or replacement, just accept. You are unlikely to ever get more than that. I realize you were just looking for advice, but it should have been clear that you weren't going to get it; at least not by text, then and there.
- If the seller misrepresented the animals, present them with the evidence to that effect, preferably in a non-accusatory tone. (Tagging your post with "wildlife smuggler" is not likely to be productive) Maybe, instead of being out and out fraud, it was a miscommunication on somebody's part. In this case, these sound like wild tortoises that nobody knows the true age of. I don't personally know the seller, but I don't know your vet either.

If I were in your situation, I would accept the sellers offer of a refund or replacement. I would research proper care of Russian tortoises, including discussing it with other hobbyists who have experience with this species. And, if necessary, I would consider getting a second opinion from another reptile vet. If dealing with these sorts of problems is more than you want to get into, I would also recommend buying captive bred specimens only from this point on.
Good luck.

Billy,

This isn't slander. You're a butt head.

Lydia

oops.. I didn't mean to say butt head. I meant. but.. head.

Hi Lynn!
Thank you!!! This is the first actual advice I have received from anyone about these Torts and their care.

More later. I am working until 9 and then I will check all the meds and run them past you.

-Lydia

Hi Lydia I spoke with my lawyer. Tagging a post associated with my name as a wildlife smuggler is considered a defamation of character. Along with publically sharing texts is highly looked down upon. I don't know you or your family but i think in the future when you purchase animals do your homework. These tortoises are best kept cool and arid. All I can do as a a seller is offer you a refund or animals back. The bottom line is you should have contacted me immideately after purchasing the animals, instead of waiting so long. Please let it be known that if the harrasment continues I'm going to take further legal action. Thank you.

Op
Even after calling Billy silly names he is STILL prepared to give you a full refund, which is MUCH more than I would do given the same situation tbh.
I suggest you quit the name calling and take his most generous offer while you still can.
And Lynn,s advice should be most helpfull in your remaining torts care