Dishonest guy Jon Boone (User name Geitje)

Originally Posted by sschind

Then he should send the frigging geckos back and he will get his money. What don't you get about that.

Seller stated he doesn't trust buyer to ship them back appropriately. Buyer has no recourse to deliver them to seller due to this, unless seller accepts buyers offer of delivering them to seller's friend in L.A. and doing a hand off.

Originally Posted by Magic

Seller stated he doesn't trust buyer to ship them back appropriately. Buyer has no recourse to deliver them to seller due to this, unless seller accepts buyers offer of delivering them to seller's friend in L.A. and doing a hand off.

Yes but Ken refused to ship the geckos back earlier. Jon says he doesn't trust him to ship safely at this time of the year (though he claims he can safely ship all year round which sounds a bit presumptuous. Maybe he doesn't trust that Ken WILL ship safely. There is a difference.) If Ken had shipped right away maybe this whole thing could be over by now.

If Ken wants to send them back it should be his prerogative. He should send them and when they arrive safely Jon will send the money back. If they do not arrive safely Ken is out. Just as if they had arrived dead to Ken Jon would have been out. If Jon refuses to allow Ken to send the animals back then he had best accept Ken's proposal to deliver the geckos to a third party that Jon trusts to ship properly although I do not think that is the best solution.

It all comes down to neither party trusting the other now. Ken doesn't trust Jon will send the money after the geckos arrive and Jon doesn't trust Ken to be able to ship the geckos properly for live arrival.

Though I do not think the third party idea is the best solution in general it may be the best solution in this situation for as far along as this thing has gotten.

Originally Posted by Geitje

1st of all, you might consider not attacking other people (Matt, Kasi, etc.) that do not pertain to the problem, and should be entitled to expressing their honest opinions - if that's what this site stands for.

And actually, Mr. Court Jester, Wai has 2.0 P. rugosus – so has not been robbed of his money. They hold value, just like any other P. rugosus. What Wai does not have is 2 P. rugosus of opposite sexes, so if plans are intact to get a couple of groups from other outside source to satisfy the obligation with Wai, then efforts are being made. Referring back to an earlier post of mine – my original idea was to get the animals in and then just send the female when ready. If I need to satisfy a customer with a daily dialogue of “where the deal stands today” I will not have an answer until the shippable product is in my hands and ready to ship. So that means “I still do not have the female P. rugosus ready”. So, yes, simply put – it is possible to send out a pair of Paroedura to someone at some point last week and not have the P. rugosus ready to ship, nor a complete and purely honest answer of when it would be ready.

No, I do not trust Wai to comfortably send the animals back alive and well at this time of the year. Currently, I might also have reason to have concern over the health of the animals, and if they are “shippable”. Industry standards would be for the customer to get what they’ve ordered, and if not, refund issued after product returned.

Your and Wai’s personal knowledge and experience might not encompass a qualified opinion on knowing the sexes of P. rugosus at the time of shipment. I’ve produced between 125 and 150 of them over the past 11 years and some young animals with varying degrees of hemi-penal bulges can indeed be females. Mistakes happen daily with animals – they die for no reason, improperly sexed, etc. Let’s return to the real topic.

I’m not sure what your personal position/investment in this thread really equates to other than combative and straying from the topic of resolution. Yourself and others who have nothing better to do than misunderstand parts of the discussion and feverishly dissect words (ex. “gypsy”) under your personalized electron microscope serves no other purpose than to make you look like your trying to uproot some imagined terrorist from the “fertile Utopian reptile hobby” of your imagination. Either put forth some constructive and kind suggestions of help, or perhaps step away from the keyboard and find a better way to spend time – that’s what I do.

The bottom line is Wai has 2 P. rugosus that he paid for and they just happen to be the wrong sex. These 2 animals hold market value (around $400-450 each), just like any other rare reptile – so he has not been “robbed”. He has an extra “male” as collateral in the event that the deal not be corrected. So, since efforts are being made to either fix the problem, or pursuing the avenue of returning for refund – arguing other points, wording of statements, semantics and the like are what I would consider “off topic” and does nothing but waste time and create drama. Otherwise, why not everyone go spend some time with your animals and family until the resolution is finalized.

And lastly –

<<< "Nobody needs your rendition of what the problem here is or the solution." >>>

I feel like I’m arguing with a “fainting goat that’s chasing its own tail” (sorry in advance to any fainting goats that might be reading) – yes, of course my opinion and contribution to the solution is important.

If you are going to falsely accuse me of attacking someone, put it in quotes. That's a typical defense mechanism used out of desparation. And you're right, this site is for expressing opinions as I have been doing. What I find interesting is that Wai has posted hid resolution hrre, which you ignored, yet you took the time to entertain a court jester. Only in America do you have the freedom to utilize a site you have little or no respect for even after you bashed it. I will step away from the keyboard when I'm good and ready. Off topic? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Geitje

1st of all, you might consider not attacking other people (Matt, Kasi, etc.) that do not pertain to the problem, and should be entitled to expressing their honest opinions - if that's what this site stands for.

And actually, Mr. Court Jester, Wai has 2.0 P. rugosus – so has not been robbed of his money. They hold value, just like any other P. rugosus. What Wai does not have is 2 P. rugosus of opposite sexes, so if plans are intact to get a couple of groups from other outside source to satisfy the obligation with Wai, then efforts are being made. Referring back to an earlier post of mine – my original idea was to get the animals in and then just send the female when ready. If I need to satisfy a customer with a daily dialogue of “where the deal stands today” I will not have an answer until the shippable product is in my hands and ready to ship. So that means “I still do not have the female P. rugosus ready”. So, yes, simply put – it is possible to send out a pair of Paroedura to someone at some point last week and not have the P. rugosus ready to ship, nor a complete and purely honest answer of when it would be ready.

No, I do not trust Wai to comfortably send the animals back alive and well at this time of the year. Currently, I might also have reason to have concern over the health of the animals, and if they are “shippable”. Industry standards would be for the customer to get what they’ve ordered, and if not, refund issued after product returned.

Your and Wai’s personal knowledge and experience might not encompass a qualified opinion on knowing the sexes of P. rugosus at the time of shipment. I’ve produced between 125 and 150 of them over the past 11 years and some young animals with varying degrees of hemi-penal bulges can indeed be females. Mistakes happen daily with animals – they die for no reason, improperly sexed, etc. Let’s return to the real topic.

I’m not sure what your personal position/investment in this thread really equates to other than combative and straying from the topic of resolution. Yourself and others who have nothing better to do than misunderstand parts of the discussion and feverishly dissect words (ex. “gypsy”) under your personalized electron microscope serves no other purpose than to make you look like your trying to uproot some imagined terrorist from the “fertile Utopian reptile hobby” of your imagination. Either put forth some constructive and kind suggestions of help, or perhaps step away from the keyboard and find a better way to spend time – that’s what I do.

The bottom line is Wai has 2 P. rugosus that he paid for and they just happen to be the wrong sex. These 2 animals hold market value (around $400-450 each), just like any other rare reptile – so he has not been “robbed”. He has an extra “male” as collateral in the event that the deal not be corrected. So, since efforts are being made to either fix the problem, or pursuing the avenue of returning for refund – arguing other points, wording of statements, semantics and the like are what I would consider “off topic” and does nothing but waste time and create drama. Otherwise, why not everyone go spend some time with your animals and family until the resolution is finalized.

And lastly –

<<< "Nobody needs your rendition of what the problem here is or the solution." >>>

I feel like I’m arguing with a “fainting goat that’s chasing its own tail” (sorry in advance to any fainting goats that might be reading) – yes, of course my opinion and contribution to the solution is important.

Very interesting about Jon said that he produced this species over 125-150 the past 11 years, but he still made a mistake from a sub adult male as a female...and then he think I am inexperience with this species but I can tell it is a male from the day one when I received it from the post office, don't you guys think this is funny : )
By the way Jon told me before his buddy in LA is an experience gecko breeder, so he should no problem if I give him the two males and has him ship them back to Jon.

Wai Lui

Wai please check your private messages. also i might have a solution for you to fix the rugosus problem but not your problem with Mr. Boone. I am local. and it will cost you zero money. just an exchange of animals.pm me and i will fill you in.

Jay Sommers.

I have kept quiet about a couple of facts because Wai apparently has too much honor and humility to bring it up here. It just goes to show a little bit about his character because he has zero ego and walks through life treating people with respect. So since he will not bring it up I will because i find it offensive for people to make some comments like the ones stated by the minions that came on here in the begining.

Wai lui is absolutely 100% qualified to ship these geckos safely. He is in fact very experienced in keeping reptiles and shipping them. Wai is too humble to bring up the fact that he will forever be enshrined as an icon in the gecko world. Here is a fact. You can thank Wai for number of things mostly introducing a few species to the gecko hobby when he still lived in China. I remember getting some of the first ever export of Teratoscincus roborowskii probably at least 15 years ago thanks to Wai. they may be a $15 wholesale gecko now but at the time they were very very rare and I paid alot more than $15 a piece. Also Wai has a very well known gecko species named after him. Very few people on fauna can say they have a species named after them. The species in question is Goniurosaurus luii a species of Cave gecko from China and Vietnam. Wai was the person who discovered the species and it was named in his honor when it was formerly described by Lee Grismer. So just wanting to shed some light on the fact that Wai is fully capable of shipping 1-2 geckos from California to Oklahoma.

Thanks Jay for taking the time to add this valuable information to this thread. It is sad that Wai has been treated the way he has. There is no excuse for it! It leaves little question about his abilities and experience!

Jay, great information added - thank you for doing so!

I hope this works out for you, Wai. I also hope John does the right thing, though he seems to be quite hesitant to. In my opinion, any instance such as this necessitates a refund, period - whether or not you have or do not have a replacement animal on hand at that given time.

Tim no problem.

Panther. I have proposed a solution to help Wai and another friend by exchanging one of my young females with Wai for one of the males and selling the male to a friend who needs one. Hopefully it will all work out. I highly doubt there will be any resolution between the seller and Wai. But it will help Wai and my friend and that is good enough for me.

Two things that have also irritated me about this whole thing. First of all shipping the animals this time of year is not rocket science. It takes a deli cup,styro box and a heat pack.Done. And i don't blame Wai for not sending the animals back without refund first. I can assure you it is highly unlikely he would get his money back from this seller.

Also rugosus is not the super ultra rare animal everyone thinks. They are actually very easy to get. I just imported 7 last week and i could have easily imported 20. The are less money in Europe as well. they pop up all the time there for low prices(under $200 for juvies) and a seller in Canada offers them fairly frequently on all the known classifieds to be exported into the U.S. I heard there were plenty on tables at Hamm as well so you don't even have to be in the inner circle to get them. They just aren't overflowing in collections in the U.S. but very very easy to get. Getting animals from Europe is very easy . I have my import/export license but even if you don't it is easy to get things from Europe and there are companies who will do it for as little as $50 per head.

For all that smoke Jon was blowing and puffing about all the species he has worked with, I bet not having one named after him is a bruising blow to his ego, lol. Thats why you shouldn't assume you're the top dog.

Wonder why he isn't making things right? Seems like he is ignoring the situation, hoping it will blow over.