BEWARE OF PIJAC!!!!

Maybe it's just me, but this devisiveness sounds exactly like what PETA, HSUS, et al are loving right now. Is it too far of a stretch to perhaps wonder if someone on the opposing side may have planted a seed of a rumor or two or three?


NoHR669 just posted an update, addressing this on their blog, btw.

Sorry Robin, but I dont see most people taking an us versus them mentality, other than a US (ALL REPTILE ENTHUSIAST) versus government regulation stance.

Yes there are plenty of rumors flying, but what I primarily see is people wanting honest answers to what exactly is being ironed out behind closed doors. This effects us all and we all have a right to know what is going on and by who.

The silence by those who are involved in this process is deafening.

This all is just making me sick! I hate talking on subjects like this, but I can not keep my mouth shut any longer.

Do people really think large scale breeders are stupid? Since the beginning of the whole HR669 thing I have been in contact with several "large scale" breeders and most of them have stated that 80% or more of their business actually comes from small scale breeders and hobby breeders. With that said "if" (big big big IF) they would be trying to push the small scale breeders out of business it would kinda like cutting their profits by 80% or more! These large scale breeders don't sell $500 reptiles to pet stores. If anyone would be trying to stop internet sales and reptile show sales it would be the Pet Stores. They can't make a profit selling a normal male ball python for $50 or more if everyone knows they can pick one up from a local breeder at half the cost if not less. I doubt they would try that at this point though as they no their power currently comes from the thousands of phone calls, E-mails, and letters from the hobbiest and small scale breeders.

One thing I have definitely noticed here is it seems those pointing the fingers seem to be those from USARK and they are targeting PIJAC and its management members. Also I have seen no hard evidence for the accusations being brought to bear, just a friend of a friends friend said kinda stuff. Kinda makes me wonder if I actually joined a group I want to be associated with when I joined USARK. This behavior is not very professional and sounds more like a group trying to use political fear to smear others than an organization truly dedicated to protecting our rights.

Originally Posted by rabernet

NoHR669 just posted an update, addressing this on their blog, btw.

Thanks for that. I just read it.

Originally Posted by shrap

Sorry Robin, but I dont see most people taking an us versus them mentality, other than a US (ALL REPTILE ENTHUSIAST) versus government regulation stance.

Yes there are plenty of rumors flying, but what I primarily see is people wanting honest answers to what exactly is being ironed out behind closed doors. This effects us all and we all have a right to know what is going on and by who.

The silence by those who are involved in this process is deafening.

Fair enough. I guess I'm just naive enough in this industry to still have faith in one another. I hope I'm not mis-guided.

You will not see it until the new improved HR669 comes out, that's the way they want it.

That's the way things work. You can't release an unfinished bill. Thats like the bootleg release of the wolverine movie not having special effects. Your missing the most important parts.

The new and improved HR669 will go something like this:

Small breeders will not be able to breed, sell, trade, import, export, or ship any reptiles. Only larger breeders that have an on the premises herp vet will be able to do so. Also USDA and USFW must inspect them and approve the facility, caging, care etc. The animals produced will only be shipped to pet stores, zoos and animal education facilities.

As stated above, NRIP Accreditation is based upon a Plan Participant's adherence to the standards contained in the program. Accreditation is achieved through self-regulation and inspection that may be verified by a veterinarian, or a state department of agriculture and/or the United States Department of Agriculture veterinarian with an understanding in the handling and care of reptiles and amphibians.

Ok.... these are two completely different documents, two completely different things. NRIP is NOT HR669. HR669 would be a LAW that would be LEGALLY REQUIRED to follow. NRIP is pretty much a guideline program that is VOLUNTARY, and helps make your business look better if you get certified.

I simply wont agree because i personally feel the fee to be a member, to register for the program, and to be acredited is FAR TOO HIGH. Sorry But The hobbyists will be turned away because of this, and i wont support it with those fees as they stand.

USARK stated what they think, and they are fighting for us, why is it that PIJAC is so slow to do the same?

Did you ever even watch, or listen, or read the HR669 hearing? They did a pretty good job of stating what they think, and they are doing a pretty good job of helping us, as well as other areas of business and hobby that involve "exotic" animals. Not just herps.

Why do people think any industry automatically needs federal regulation? What this country needs is LESS federal regulations and to allow individual states to govern themselves they way things were meant to be.

I do agree that we could use some sort of federal regulation, BUT ONLY A VERY MINIMAL AMOUNT. I do want the states to set up their own laws and rules and regulations, but without some sort of central set of guidelines and networking, it would be quite confusing. Example: All of the states having their own currency back in the day.
As long as the feds don't try taking over or even exerting control over the "industry," I think it could be ok.

They will claim it's for the sake of protecting their industry, when in reality the law proposed would be an effort to reduce competition across the board by putting those smaller companies out of business via regulation and red tape.

Really, why would they do that? Most "big businesses" need the smaller buisnesses to survive! Think of it in terms offff.... lets say oscar ball park franks. Yes, they are a big company, but if they didn't have restaurants and small ball parks, as well as big ball parks, buying their products, do you think they would survive?

Without the small guy buying, their is no big guy to sell.

I agree with Rich totally on this point. If the government really wanted to protect people they would outlaw cigarettes.

Honestly, I think that is why they are slowly raising taxes on tobacco products.

I mean, if they just outlawed them, straight out, do you know what kind of hell would take place in this country? That's how many hundreds of thousands of people in this country having nic fits at the same time. That's the equivelant to 100 woman PMSing..... scary....

PJAC will help, but we have to fight to save ourselves.

We are all in the same boat together.

What this all boils down to is that there is a ton of misinformation being thrown out there and people passing blaim on those that really don't deserve it because they are afraid. Hell, I'll admit. I'm afraid. I was planning on starting a business this summer breeding different species of geckos and snakes. That will throw that whole thing out the window. Even if that doesn't work out, I'd still have a hobby, right? Well yea, but it would make things a hell of alot harder. But do you see that I am not passing blaim?

What I see is multiple organizations coming out to help us as a whole, and we are falling apart as people. We do need to come together, as everyone else has said. Bird, fish, reptile, amphibian, mammal, and everything else keepers, breeders, and hobbyists need to come together as one and rise up against the governemtn with such strength that we cannot be ignored. Let us take the help that organizations such as PIJAC or USARK (prolly spelled it wrong), so as to have more strength behind us. No one can deny that HR669 will comeback, but when it does, we must all stand as a single entity and fight! STOP HATING EACH OTHER! WE DON'T NEED IT RIGHT NOW!

Originally Posted by Gloryhound

This all is just making me sick! I hate talking on subjects like this, but I can not keep my mouth shut any longer.

Do people really think large scale breeders are stupid? Since the beginning of the whole HR669 thing I have been in contact with several "large scale" breeders and most of them have stated that 80% or more of their business actually comes from small scale breeders and hobby breeders. With that said "if" (big big big IF) they would be trying to push the small scale breeders out of business it would kinda like cutting their profits by 80% or more! These large scale breeders don't sell $500 reptiles to pet stores. If anyone would be trying to stop internet sales and reptile show sales it would be the Pet Stores. They can't make a profit selling a normal male ball python for $50 or more if everyone knows they can pick one up from a local breeder at half the cost if not less. I doubt they would try that at this point though as they no their power currently comes from the thousands of phone calls, E-mails, and letters from the hobbiest and small scale breeders.

One thing I have definitely noticed here is it seems those pointing the fingers seem to be those from USARK and they are targeting PIJAC and its management members. Also I have seen no hard evidence for the accusations being brought to bear, just a friend of a friends friend said kinda stuff. Kinda makes me wonder if I actually joined a group I want to be associated with when I joined USARK. This behavior is not very professional and sounds more like a group trying to use political fear to smear others than an organization truly dedicated to protecting our rights.

I'm not accusing anyone or any organization of anything, but you might want to do a google search on "PETCO PETA" and "PETCO HSUS".

Why would these large chains get their power from small, independent hobbiests/breeders? Again, I'm not saying this is what they are doing, but
if they could eliminate the competition presented by small-scale breeders of the several reptiles species they sell (ie, corner the market on kingsnakes/cornsnakes/leopard geckos), it could be much more profitable for the big chains.

Again, I'm not suggesting this is what is going on, but I would not assume the big pet store chains are on our side. They are big public corporations whose priority is making a profit.

I have not formed an opinion about this one way or another and neither an economist, but I can brainstorm and I could see where it would be beneficial for the "Big Breeders" and Chain Pet Stores to make legal breeding inaccessible for small time breeders. In conjunction with the bill's sponsors they could :

Concur with "new" regulations that they currently conform to.

Create new regulations that it would be feasible for them to easily conform to.

Create regulations that "small timers" would have difficulty implementing.

Create a fee/permit system especially targeted to breeding that is just high/expensive enough to make it almost impossible for the "small timers" to afford.( this alone would be especially effective and affordable by the "Big Breeders" if competition is virtually eliminated).

Allow for stiff, fines and penalties ( jail-time?) for breaking any of the new regulations/laws ( another powerful deterrent ).

***All of the above is intended to do mainly this:
Create regulations that makes breeding and especially trading legal ( in the name of "protecting the environment"), but so costly, time consuming and difficult as to preclude the ability for the "average Joe" to do so.

All of this would allow them and the representatives to congratulate each other, show the public that they actually did something, "crack down" on the irresponsible "small time" breeders that release all these dangerous animals and corner the market and price fix ( just like the cereal companies did).
The demand for reptiles is diminished to an extent, but so is the supply, the important factor being that supply is now in the hands of a few, making monopolies posible.
So then the mid-level and casual hobbyist-breeders mostly quit breeding, no new breeders are created ( a big plus for them) the hard-core breeders go underground and create a black market that is still supplemented and partially dependent upon "Big Breeders" legal animals. All the while the market price for animals is growing exponentially ( regulation that diminishes supply, is really the only way to raise prices in a stagnant market).
The "Big Breeders" then sell directly to the chain Pet Stores or "specialty" stores/small ( middlemen with the money to afford the news permits etc...) and then:
Big Business, Politicians and the Lobbyists once again control capitalism, the citizens and the almighty dollar ...the "new" American way.


Wow, I just pulled all of that out of my...just think what a few greedy corporate industrialists could come up with, with some serious planning...

Who is the "big breeders" market?
Small time hobby breeders.
Who will buy the high end morphs? Petco and Petsmart? They barely sell their normals. Small pet stores? They MIGHT have a pastel in, but rarely move anything but normals.
I can't see the big breeders cutting their own throat. Whatever else they may be, they are busnessmen(women), and would not cut off the main source of buyers!

Originally Posted by Wolfy-hound

Who is the "big breeders" market?
Small time hobby breeders.
Who will buy the high end morphs? Petco and Petsmart? They barely sell their normals. Small pet stores? They MIGHT have a pastel in, but rarely move anything but normals.
I can't see the big breeders cutting their own throat. Whatever else they may be, they are busnessmen(women), and would not cut off the main source of buyers!

And one more point. Where do you think the big breeders get a large number of the lower end animals that they supply to Petco and Petsmart? They buy them from smaller breeders in wholesale lots.

I really think everyone needs to take a step back, take a couple of deep breaths and quit recycling unsubstantiated rumors around till there is actually some shred of evidence to support them.

The blog entry on NOHR669 plainly states PIJACS position. You can choose to believe it or not.