Genetics of Poor Temperaments

I would rather have a snake that didn't try to tag me every chance it got. It certainly seems like it should be worth a little more. I would think that the average person would enjoy their snake much more if it's a pleasure to handle.

I think I'd agree with you there Art. I think I'd pay a couple of dollars extra for a snake I knew I could fully appreciate and handle.

I would pay more for something I wante and could handle well too!

Here's an interesting take. Sorry for the length.

In some reptiles, I'm sure gentics is a major factor. I have seen such
inconsistency in behavior from generation to generation, in chameleons,
that I belive there to be a bit more to it.

My first veiled chameleons were WC adults. Very friendly. All of the
breeders I associated with, including me, bred veileds, and believed, in
good faith, that veileds were friendlier than other chameleons - at least
to their keepers. Panthers on the other hand - evil incarnate. All of our
veileds were sweet, calm, and gentle. They were all WC.

After we got the F1's growing up, we noticed somethign odd. they
were evil little buggers. All of them. I even worked with my hold
backs, nearly every day. They were handaleable, but they'd hat eyou
while you held them. My othe rmale woudl never gape, flare up at me,
or hiss. Only time he did that was when he got a shot of calcium from a
vet ( he had slight MBD when I got him).

Over the last several years, I began experimenting with them. I've
found that veileds that are "socialized" when young, are sweethearts. If
they are housed in small groups, and allowed to settle territorial
disputes, learn what the various threat and display colorations mean,
and generally interact with adults and young, they are much friendlier.

Males, in particular, benifit from such exposure. A young male that
attempts to mount a larger, non-receptive female will learn (quickly) that
the black lizard, with blue and yellow squiggles and a gaping mouth is
NOT something you get too close to. They will learn to approach
females slowly, and to engage in courtship behavior more readily.

There are breeders that claim calyptratus have no courtship ritual - they
just grab females and mate, receptive or not.

This is unnatural behavior, brought upon by the way the animals are
housed. In the wild, they are able to interact, socialize and learn from
each other - who's dominant, color signals, etc. They learn their
boundaries and territories. They have complex social behavior, but the
scope of their territories makes reproducing it in captivity impossible for
the average keeper. So, we house them in individual cages, isolated
from even visual contact. The result is males that have all the instincts to
mate and fight, but none of the "hard knocks" that come with growing
up in "the real world" - we've all got sociopathic chameleons.

They do not know how to act amongst others, especially the females.
Instead of courting them, and working hard to impress them, they
forcibly mate - bypassing the puffing up, color changing, tail curling,
head jerking... I've seen males on top of females even before their
courtship colors have finished changing! They'll head butt their heads
out of the way and cause severe damage.

Here's an example:

One of my old F1's that was particularly nasty, was housed in a large
outdoor screen cage. It was 12'x8'x8'. I put 2 females in with him. At
first, he ran them into the ground - literally, I found them wedged in the
rocks and plants on the ground. After a few days, he learned to be
nicer. He still attempted to court them every once in a while - but he
always kept his distance, and stayed near the upper branches. They
stayed near the bottom. When they were rceptive, they moved up to
him, and stayed with him until they had to lay eggs. He learned to
respect their gravid coloration, and they were no longer threatened by
him. They kept the warnign colors, but slept, basked and moved with
im, staying less than a foot away most of the time.

After this experience, the male was much nicer to me. not quite as
friendly as his father, but much better than before.

The interesting thing is, now, people think of panthers as friendly. The
CB pardalis are sweet. Weird.

Great post Eric. Let me throw one thing in there as food for thought. This is related to the aggressiveness of the young cham's. They are so small and defensless they are pretty much victims if they are located by a predator. All they really have is a bunch of huff and puff before they get eaten. For anything so small I would think it would be perfectly normal for them to have an attitude. It's really their only defense if they get into trouble. Even as an adult they are pretty much victims.

It's been my understanding that most cham's do not really like to be held and it really makes sense under the circumstances. I am not saying all don't like handling. Their instinctive nature is just hard to beat.

Yes it's true. However, their aggresivness varies a lot. Especially their intraspecific agression. What we appear to have is an instinctive agression.

Hypothetically, lets say they hatch out preprogrammed, with their agression turned up to 100%. IF they are housed separatly, without ANY contact, communication, interaction, etc. - they stay 100% aggresive.

Through their life, they interact with others, and learn how to use their aggression: when to attack and when to back down. And when to do a courtship dance.

They learn that they don't always have to be aggresive, all the time.

Now, chameleons are aggressive animals in general - so we're dealing with degrees of it. Some will walk out onto your arm and eat from your hand while you're holding them. Many will puff up, but otherwise not attack when you hold them. Others will make a fuss if you pick them up, but will be otherwise ok as long as you dont' grab them. than you have the others... the ones you just simply cannot handle. I find that most of the male veileds that are housed singly, with no contact with others at all, turn out like this.

Much of our current livestock and other "companion" animals that have been domesticated are bred for gentleness so that we as humans can handle them and work with them. The original breeders of every domesticated variety chose some trait to breed for and picked their broodstock accordingly. The earlier statement about the dogs was right on the mark. Dogs,cattle, horses, barnyard fowl, etc. And many of them are not considered very cerebral( ie. act on instinct). It follows that it is possible for reptiles too, but how many generations it would take to "set" gentleness as a trait is unknown. How long will it take to domesticate some of the nastier reptile breeds? Who knows. I have read that cornsnakes are pretty close to being considered domesticated. I currently have a pair of bloodreds bought as hatchlings at a show that are just as docile as every other variety I own, but for the more traditionally nasty breeds?
On a side note, I watched a show on Discovery about young elephants at a reserve that were killing other animals such as rhinos and hippos. It was decided that they had not been taught proper elephant behavior before they got transplanted, so some older animals were brought in to regulate. After a little butt kicking by the older animals the problem was solved and the killings stopped. Not real on tatget for reptiles, but it shows the importance of socialization.

Eric and Jeremiah, I agree with both of you. Eric, I think your findings with the chams is really cool.

Yes! The elephant juvinile delinquents were my inspiration!

I saw that, and remembered my experience with the male veiled
chameleons, and came up with that idea of socializing the things.

With reptiles, we give instincts and genetics a bit too much credit, I do
believe that there is some degree of learned behavior. There needs to
be studies, in detail, to confirm how and what they can learn.

Pete Mackevich, a breeder I knew in PA, used to advertize hand tame
green basilisks. The guy would work with them every day for nearly a
year. He'd sell them for like $150.00 - which is a bargain when you
see the end result: Beautiful, plumed basilisks that are as friendly as any
bearded dragon. Calm, gentle, relaxed even in crowds.

Few things are as skittish and mean as them.

Originally Posted by eric adrignola

With reptiles, we give instincts and genetics a bit too much credit, I do
believe that there is some degree of learned behavior. There needs to
be studies, in detail, to confirm how and what they can learn.

Pete Mackevich, a breeder I knew in PA, used to advertize hand tame
green basilisks. The guy would work with them every day for nearly a
year. He'd sell them for like $150.00 - which is a bargain when you
see the end result: Beautiful, plumed basilisks that are as friendly as any
bearded dragon. Calm, gentle, relaxed even in crowds.

Few things are as skittish and mean as them.

That is really cool, and I agree with the fact that you can condition behavior in reptiles. Last year in Daytona I saw someone selling hand-tamed Tokays, and they were actually tame. It was awesome, and if I got a Tokay, I would definitely shell out the extra for a tame one. You can definitely condition reptiles. My friend's Savannah Monitor "asks" to go out when he needs to poop; and I have 2 different snakes that only poop in one spot in their cages, ever. Very easy to clean up

I am actually beginning to try this "genetic tameness" factor out as part of a crested gecko breeding project. (Not that they aren't pretty easy to handle to start with, but......) I use ease in handling as one of the factors I look for in breeding. The biggest problem I run into is distinguishing between conditioned animals and those with a naturally calm disposition. (For instance, my most spazzy gecko I bought as a subadult and she had been handled pretty roughly before I got her.)

Now, If I ever get a chance to run a breeding program like that with my husband's Blue Beauty Rat Snake, I'll let you know if it works!