Reptile Ethics, When do we say thats enough

I suspect that there's a great deal of agreement on some of the subjects at hand here... Many of us disagree with venomoid production regardless of who does it, for reasons which have been stated many times on this site and others, I suspect ALL of us can see the negative aspects of an unliscenced individual attempting ANY kind of surgery on an animal, especially one with a fairly delicate physiological balance....

The only real issue of debate here seems to have been the legality or illegality of creating venomoids in a garage. Legal is not always identical to moral or ethical and it's important to keep the issues separate.

Scott posted some very specific information which would seem to indicate that the action is illegal in the state which it (the specific act that promted this thread) was performed. The question now comes down to enforceability... The laws are in place that could be enforced, but it seems that they frequently aren't when reptiles are concerned. This is both positive and negative.

On the one hand, anyone who is abusing reptiles should be prosecuted in the same manner as someone who sets their dog on fire (unliscenced and unneeded surgery falls under abuse in Oregon if I read Scott's earlier post correctly). A living thing is a living thing.

On the other hand, the last thing our hobby needs is more bad publicity or additional restrictive legislation. I fear that the legislative solution wouldn't be to prosecute the individual responsible for the specific act but rather some kind of widespread law that makes it more difficult to own herps. Purely as a hypothetical, I believe the media and courts would utilize a train of thought such as- "He's being cruel to animals. He's being cruel to animals to make them less dangerous. Venomous snakes are dangerous. Dangerous things should be illegal." I don't trust ninety percent of the people I meet on a daily basis to tie their own shoes much less watch a news program and realize that the information is highly subjective... they simply swallow what they are told and then demand that "the government do something about it" (Monkeypox in prarie dogs is a good example, there were really VERY few cases considering the total population of animals, but CNN called it an "epidemic" and the USDA temporary ban has been in place nearly a year now).

Basically the question becomes... Go after someone doing something that you believe to be immoral and *might* be illegal and chance a slight risk to reptile owners everywhere... Or stay quiet and let the individual get away with their backyard butchery?

Scott, I read the procedures. And now I'm certain it would be easier to do a gland removal than it would be to spay a mammal. MUCH less invasive.

Seamus, I love it when you're on your game man. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Further, remember the post started because the supposed butcher, got, what he considered, poor animals. Tempers flaired, and it degenerated into a mess. I don't know that anyone has come forward, to say that this guy has actually injured or killed an animal while performing the procedure. *Remember folks doing the procedure does not count as injury, if it is done correctly, that is not what I am arguing. He may very well be working with a vet to obtain the meds, tools, etc. He may be very good at performing it.

If that is the case, and he can do this correctly, do we really want laws passed/enforced which would keep him from doing it but allow a vet to do it? Again, not defending the actual procedure, just defending our rights as herp owners to handle things like this on our own.

It's been busy the last few day's so I appologise for not getting back sooner.

From the state officials I have spoke with regaurding the reasoning for the laws reguarding especially surgical procedures is simple " To insure the HIGHEST quality of care and treatment to ANY animal." Most of them are not opposed to a person giving meds or noninvasive treatments to animals minus surgeries. Again it goes to the Spirit of the law not the Letter of the law.

When it comes to Laws and Herps its always a touchy subject. Problem that I hear and see all to often is "IT DOES NOT EFFECT ME". BS...... If we as keepers / breeders / sellers do not take a proactive roll in helping to educate and create laws we stand high chances of being heavily regulated right out of our hobby.

There are so many cases to back that statement its scarry. Just look at how many places have size laws reguarding to how big a snake you can keep is.

When it comes to the medical aspect of the hobby we all do whats right for our animals but how many of us are willing to do a surgery on our own if we can get a vet to preform it for us. I know how hard it is to find one qualified but better them do it right then us kill our animal.

As for the individual who is doing it in Oregon by his own admission he had no scale so how the hell was he even administering meds properly. PICK IT UP AND GUESS METHOD?

This thread can go forever when you bring in ethics and medication and the laws and I hope to god it does maybe a few people will start getting proactive and start helping to create solutions to probelms and inform others to protect our rights and the animals rights. From the few i see posting here its obvious a few of us care. and thank you

Scott Bice

PS i need coffee

Yes it does become an emotional issue. Enforcable? Maybe Maybe not. Another question arises.... Do we fail to turn in someone for cruelty issues?? Is it because we fear more negative publicity and additional outcry from the uneducated public. Is it due to the idealism that,"nothing will be done anyway"? Or.. do we fear that "we" may come under scrutiny as well? In extreme cases of cruelty, where it is an ongoing continuous situation, I say step up. Yes, it does place both "us" and the general public at odds. However, I've yet to meet a reporter that is not willing to publish both sides of the issue. If it is handled in an intelligent manner. I think for the most part we can police ourselves. We know who the bad guys are and we simply place concentrated pressure on them from the rest of the herp community Scott and myself both were recently involved in a rescue. It was plain and simple neglect of a number of herps.(Dead and rotting even!) We did not resort to calling the authorities. We simply communicated with other area herpers and made them aware of this person's "Ethics". He will simply find himself being ousted from dealing with anyone on a commercial or other basis in our area. I guess what i'm getting at is.. Don't be afraid to first place peer or herp community pressure on those type of people. If that doesn't work... Take it up with the authorities and make every effort to assist or educate them. We can't always turn a blind eye. Sorry it's a little off topic. In regards to the thread... I've made my points and hopefully made a few people think. I know I've seen other issues here that I've come to consider as well.
Thanks Ray G. HBR

First, let me say that there is a very good debate going on and there are some very good points being brought up. It is amazing that the original post was so ignorant and yet after the flaming war died down, there is a very logical debate continuing. Now, as for the accusations of illegal activity, I find it amazing that it is now stated as a fact and people have gone as far as to say that "I said that I did this" and " I said I did that", when in reality I never said I did anything and all of this arose from a simple post of a bad experience I had with a wholesaler. All of the other rumors and here-say were brought up to take the attention away from the original post, which was done successfully. It is kind of ridiculous that some people have chosen to take it so far and have gone to such lengths to try and make their accusations facts. For example, I have gotten threatening phonecalls and harassment ever since my phone number was posted on the net, I have been turned in for god knows what over rumors and accusations that I never agreed with or confirmed, I also had a mysterious person impersonate me over the phone and try and get my utilities and other accounts changed,closed, and messed with since my information was posted. I don't want to start a flame war, I am not going to comment further on any of that. As for the debate at hand, there are alot of comments that I agree with on this thread. Once you get past the rants and holier than thou statements. I think the bottom line is that we all have different views and ways of going about this hobby. We will all never agree totally about everything because we are all different, but it is good that we do agree on some of it, there is hope for this hobby yet.
Kevin Smith

Well in keeping with the spirit of a logical debate / discussion and since you appear to want to be part of it by posting here let me ask you some questions Kevin to possibly help us all understand why someone does deal in venomoids !!!

As a seller the animals are under your care durring their stay with you and if one needs treatment how do you treat them?

You yourself stated you did not have a scale so how can you properly give them medications ?

Next you have this surgery done and inflate the price of the animal dramatically which is nothing but "surgery for profit". Do you feel it is right and a moral practice?

How would you feel if a animal you sell as basically a safe animal does bite and kill someone?

And would you allow your kids to play with such an animal?

You talk about the HOBBY. What happens if your venomoids do cause deaths and therfore create strick laws where as people can not keep them or for that matter create laws that further restrict all herps more?.Is it wourth it to you to make more money and see the hobby more restrictive?

Here is your chance to inform us of why it is ok from your stand point.

Thanks You

No you did not admit these things in that thread. You deliberately avoided the direct questions posted to you in that thread. These so called attacks on the fact you work/perform work with venomoids was brought up due to the fact that it may have had bearing on the animals you recieved. The accusations in regards to what you do were not second hand or rumor. A few of the persons posting were there with Ray during the conversations with you...it came from you.. I do have to say I do not and never will condone threats or any type of "terrorism" towards you or your family. I may not agree with you but, I feel that "if" you continue it will be a problem with the authorities. It is NOT a matter to be taken up by private citizens and should be limited to informing authorities and allowing THEM to make a decision. In regards to "venomoids" I simply hope it is being done legally, by a recognised professional ,for a "good" reason and with the utmost care in regards to the animals welfare. If you are going to come on in this thread.. how about this time do a few things... answer the questions directly, do not start with name calling and express your opinion backed by fact, or intelligent responsible replies. You'll find that if you can do this everyone will have an "intelligent debate" not a childish name calling contest.

Well in keeping with the spirit of a logical debate / discussion and since you appear to want to be part of it by posting here let me ask you some questions Kevin to possibly help us all understand why someone does deal in venomoids !!!

>> It is my right to deal in venomoids, I feel they do serve a purpose and are a very good tool to use inorder to educate about reptiles. I know that reason is not good enough for alot of people against venomoids, but then again, no reason would ever be good enough for some people. That is fine, everyone has a right to their opinion.

As a seller the animals are under your care durring their stay with you and if one needs treatment how do you treat them?

>>most of the time I am able to treat the animals myself, if it is beyond my capabilities, then I have friends and local vets that are more than happy to help out. The only animals I have ever had problems with, were from the seller in the original thread. I am like most everyone else that treats their own animals, I have access to a large library and also the internet for information. As far as the original thread that started this debate, you can gather from reading it that the animals that were mentioned were in terminal condition and were unfit to be sold, let alone been able to have been venomoided. There is simply no excuse for sending out animals in that condition and that is one of the reasons all of the accusations were brought up to distract from the subject at hand.

You yourself stated you did not have a scale so how can you properly give them medications ?

>>For the record, I did own a scale, but it was borrowed and never returned, so I had to order another one. I did not get a chance to explain that, since there were so many flames being thrown and I apologize for not explaining in the original thread.

Next you have this surgery done and inflate the price of the animal dramatically which is nothing but "surgery for profit". Do you feel it is right and a moral practice?

>> Yes, I do feel that it is a moral practice, from my own stand point and for my own reasons. No one has an idea of what costs are involved, so it is really hard to judge what is a fair price for a venomoid. I do think that prices are ridiculous sometimes for some animals, but people are free to ask what they want for their animals. There are plenty of other reptiles on the net that have outrageous price tags on them, but it is a free world and people are free to ask what they want. I try to ask reasonable prices, but yes, I have to make some profit. This is similar to importers that pay $10 for an animal and then ask way more on the retail market. That is their right, and I don't see tons of people jumping them for it. Not all venomoids are marked up that high, King cobras are a good example, a nice malaysian will cost close to $1000 when it is hot, a venomoided one is usually anywhere from $1200-1400, I consider that a fair price considering they don't cost anywhere near that when they are imported. Bottom line is that anyone is free to ask whatever they want for their animals, if someone doesn't like the price, they are free to choose not to buy it.

How would you feel if a animal you sell as basically a safe animal does bite and kill someone?

>> This is kind of a ridiculous question, in which anyone capable of rational thought would know the answer to, but I will answer anyways. I am just like most others(I hope), I feel that life is a very valuable thing and I would feel bad if I sold an animal that killed someone. How would you feel if you sold a hot snake to someone and it killed someone??? Or is that different? I tell people that these snakes need to be handled with the same precautions as if they were unaltered, but they are free to do whatever they would like. I also tell people that buy venomoids from me that they need to test them regularily to make sure that they do not have functional venom delivery systems. Other than that, it is out of my control, just like it is out of any other sellers control once the snake is purchased. If the surgery is performed correctly, the chance of regeneration is next to none. The stories I have heard of regeneration are rumors to which there has never been any facts provided to how the surgery was performed or by whom.

And would you allow your kids to play with such an animal?

>>That is also a pretty ridiculous question, but once again, I will answer, NO, I would not let my kids play with such an animal, but then again, I wouldn't let them play with a constrictor over 2ft,a hognose snake,falsewater cobra, or any other potentially dangerous reptile. Would you let you your kids play with any of those??

You talk about the HOBBY. What happens if your venomoids do cause deaths and therfore create strick laws where as people can not keep them or for that matter create laws that further restrict all herps more?.Is it wourth it to you to make more money and see the hobby more restrictive?

>>What happens when mambas bite their owners??? What happens when an unaltered snake bites someone?? What happens everytime something bad happens in this hobby?? Venomoids have less of a chance of causing damage in our hobby than any hot snake. Look at how much trouble was caused over the person bit by his unaltered black mamba, now if that snake was a venomoid and he was bitten, how much trouble would it have caused?? No trip to the hospital, no one clinging on for their life, no reporters going crazy.......hmmm. Every person that handles their venomous reptiles without taking the proper precautions risks our hobby. By your logic in the last sentence or your post, everyone who sells a potentially dangerous reptile is risking making our hobby more restrictive.
Kevin Smith


Here is your chance to inform us of why it is ok from your stand point.

"The accusations in regards to what you do were not second hand or rumor. A few of the persons posting were there with Ray during the conversations with you...it came from you.."

>>Did I ever state that I did the surgeries, if I didn't, wouldn't that make it second hand and rumors since it was others that don't know me and have no idea what is going on that were accusing me?

I know that the person the original post was about, is your friend and you have already showed greatly that you are going to defend him, but you don't have first hand knowledge of anything I do, so therefore you are not qualified to state that what you accuse me of is a fact. When I spoke on the phone, you weren't on the phone and you are not the one that recieved the animals, So I will state again that these are rumors and second hand accusations.
As for admitting to anything, why should I agree with the accusations?? I don't think you ever urged your friend to tell the truth about the condition of the animals sent out.
I am not throwing flames at you and I don't have a problem with you at all, I am just asking you questions inorder to try and here how you justify these statements that you have made when you don't have first hand knowledge of all of the facts.
I would also like to say, that we all are different individuals with different opinions. We all have different beliefs and different ideas about how to apply ourselves to this hobby. With that, we can often times agree on certain subjects, but others we will never agree on, that is great, that makes for good debates. I also feel that if we look at this thread in its entirety, it is nice to see what rational debate has come from such an irrational original post.
Kevin Smith